Britten and Wagner Anniversaries: Nothing to Celebrate?

[MrGongGong]

Well, possibly, but that's such a generalised statement that it's almost meaningless. Can you say how Wagner's views about Jews affected his music? Or, to put it another way, in what way is Wagner's music anti-semitic?

I'm not sure that music (as opposed to words) CAN be "anti-semitic" ?

Though there are pieces that become that by association
it's not meaningless as many seem to think that music can exist without context

Brittens experience as a gay man when it was illegal to be so would undoubtedly have affected the way in which he was an "outsider" (maybe all composers are to some degree) and to affect the kinds of things that he would explore in his music. Which is NOT to say that it's "ABOUT" that but more that it's an important part of the whole story.

Dahlhaus (and Christopher Small) has some interesting things to say about this.

[VodkaDilc]

Couldn't have put it better myself, Mary.

Exactly. (See my earlier comment - no 14 on this thread:
I do hope that this year will concentrate on the music and not on Britten's private life and Wagner's political views. )

[MrGongGong]

Exactly WHAT is pertinent to a discussion of music is an interesting subject (and something that Dahlhaus writes about)

So

If we are to say that Brittens sexuality is NOT
and
Wagners antisemitism is NOT

how about
Elgar's love of riding his bike ?
or
Debussy experience of hearing Javanese music ?
or
Beethovens deafness ?
or
Cage's passion for mushrooms ?

[Lateralthinking1]

Exactly WHAT is pertinent to a discussion of music is an interesting subject (and something that Dahlhaus writes about)

So

If we are to say that Brittens sexuality is NOT
and
Wagners antisemitism is NOT

how about
Elgar's love of riding his bike ?
or
Debussy experience of hearing Javanese music ?
or
Beethovens deafness ?
or
Cage's passion for mushrooms ?

I just find Wagner's proven anti-semitism a huge problem. It seems to me that Orff gets a far worse press for his politics. That is because his music isn't regarded as highly rather than that he was a bigger offender. I very much doubt he was more anti Jewish.

[MrGongGong]

SO I guess this book isn't worth reading then ?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0520246101/ref=sr_1_1?p=S044&keywords=Gamelan+music&ie=UTF8&qid=1357589095#reader_0520246101

[amateur51]

I'm not sure that music (as opposed to words) CAN be "anti-semitic" ?

Though there are pieces that become that by association
it's not meaningless as many seem to think that music can exist without context

Brittens experience as a gay man when it was illegal to be so would undoubtedly have affected the way in which he was an "outsider" (maybe all composers are to some degree) and to affect the kinds of things that he would explore in his music. Which is NOT to say that it's "ABOUT" that but more that it's an important part of the whole story.

Dahlhaus (and Christopher Small) has some interesting things to say about this.

Didn't Elgar say something like "Music is in the air, all around us. And I just take of it what I need"? Well substitute 'atmosphere' for 'air' and I can see how and what a composer writes will inevitably tend to be affected by the atmosphere in which s/he writes it, the atmosphere being both internal and external of course. You've convinced me MrGG

Being an ignoramus I know nothing of Dahlhaus nor Christopher Small - could you give me a steer towards some worthwhile examples of their work please.

[MrGongGong]

Didn't Elgar say something like "Music is in the air, all around us. And I just take of it what I need"? Well substitute 'atmosphere' for 'air' and I can see how and what a composer writes will inevitably tend to be affected by the atmosphere in which s/he writes it, the atmosphere being both internal and external of course. You've convinced me MrGG

Being an ignoramus I know nothing of Dahlhaus nor Christopher Small - could you give me a steer towards some worthwhile examples of their work please.

Dahlhaus is a bit heavy going
and its a long time since I read it
but the key essay would be "What is a fact of music history ? "

http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511627309&cid=CBO9780511627309A010

Christopher Smalls : Musicking: The Meanings of Performing and Listening
has the idea that music isn't a thing but an activity that involves more than soundmaking


has to be Adnams

[amateur51]

Dahlhaus is a bit heavy going
and its a long time since I read it
but the key essay would be "What is a fact of music history ? "

http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511627309&cid=CBO9780511627309A010

Christopher Smalls : Musicking: The Meanings of Performing and Listening
has the idea that music isn't a thing but an activity that involves more than soundmaking


has to be Adnams

Many thanks for the steers - Broadside or Explorer?

[ahinton]

Oh, for heaven's sake....!

I know, I know; one may as well use centenary celebrations to rake up stuff (that is probably more than merely suspect) about apparent sexual proclivities, predilections and alleged actions, anti-Semitism, political traitorism from left to right and anything else that might come to mind when what matters most of all is the music of Britten, Wagner, Alkan, Verdi et al; as I've pointed out previously, who could possibly know merely from listening to the music of those two great Polish composers Szymanowski and Bacewicz that the former was a homosexual and the latter a woman? - and why on earth does either even matter to the listener, especially those listeners who were not around at the time that those two composers were around? In Bacewicz's case, I even remember a prejudicial remark by someone about "violinist's music by a violinist" which, whilst far from untrue, was nevertheless said of the composer who gave the première of her own piano concerto as soloist!...

Speaking of Polish music, let's not forget that this year is also the centenary of Lutosławski, arguably the greatest Polish composer since those two!...

[Quarky]

Exactly WHAT is pertinent to a discussion of music is an interesting subject (and something that Dahlhaus writes about)

So

If we are to say that Brittens sexuality is NOT
and
Wagners antisemitism is NOT

how about
Elgar's love of riding his bike ?
or
Debussy experience of hearing Javanese music ?
or
Beethovens deafness ?
or
Cage's passion for mushrooms ?

Agreed absolutely mrGG. It is not possible to separate music from its surroundings and process of creation.

In regard to Wagner and Britten, perhaps they both suffer in that their works which are most famous are those which associate them more closely with some form of deviation from the norm. I mean Peter Grimes, but Curlew River not nearly as well known.

In regard to Wagner, I don't know of any accusation of anti-semitism in Tristan, in particular the Tristan chord. But obviously the Ring is hot circumstantial evidence.

I was on my best behaviour before Christmas and resolved to listen to Siegfried. But on hearing the pre-performance discussion, the set so far as I recall was a concentration camp -like setting, with doctors performing live vivisection, and various other nasties. Too much for me - I had to switch off.

But my major criticism of these two great composers is that they paid inadequate attention to the female voice -far more expressive than the male.

[ahinton]

Exactly WHAT is pertinent to a discussion of music is an interesting subject (and something that Dahlhaus writes about)

So

If we are to say that Brittens sexuality is NOT
and
Wagners antisemitism is NOT

how about
Elgar's love of riding his bike ?
or
Debussy experience of hearing Javanese music ?
or
Beethovens deafness ?
or
Cage's passion for mushrooms ?

The question here is how (if at all) to prove that any of these things affected the nature of the music of each of those composers; that's not to argue that they necessarily didn't do so, but pray tell me how it might reasonable and credibly be argued that they did or might have done? Would you know merely by listening that any of Bacewicz's violin concertos was written by a woman if you weren't already aware of the composer's identity? Are Król Roger, Harnasie or the Second Symphony demonstrably the work of a homosexual composer? Beethoven's deafness may well have helped him to exclude some of the aural detritus around him to the advantage of some of the works that he composed once it had really aken hold and Debussy's "experience of hearing Javanese music" is, again, an aural influence upon a composer's creativity, but Elgar's bicycling (other than to the extent that it occasionally took him to places where he said that he "found" music already in existence - an allegation that should be taken seriously along with Schönberg's "diviner" statement and Busoni's idea that the music that "composers" "compose" is already there waiting somehow to be "found") is hardly on the same level, it seems to me and Wagner's anti-Semitism and Cage's "passion for mushrooms" surely just don't figure at all...

[MrGongGong]

Some interesting things ahinton
I find that the music I make is often affected by the circumstances which are not confined to sonic experience

[doversoul1]

Some interesting things ahinton
I find that the music I make is often affected by the circumstances which are not confined to sonic experience

So how much has that to do with the audience of your music? Should the audience know your personal life and ideas or the circumstance in which the music was made in order to appreciate your music?

[MrGongGong]

So how much has that to do with the audience of your music? Should the audience know your personal life and ideas or the circumstance in which the music was made in order to appreciate your music?

I'm not sure what they "should" know
but I did enjoy reading Cage's Mushroom Book
and am finding the book about La Monte Young i'm currently reading fascinating

sometimes the circumstances are more significant than others

[Flosshilde]

I'm not sure that music (as opposed to words) CAN be "anti-semitic" ?

Quite.

So it's impossible to know if Wagner's ant-semitism affected his music


or if it didn't.