Brahms: Piano concerti nos 1 & 2

[Sir Velo]

Yes, so long as we accept that we are not being told about faults within ourselves, save perhaps that of nit-picking over masterpieces. I can't for one moment accept that the Brahms Double Concerto is 'rubbish' as HS opines. Brahms set himself the challenge of writing a classical concerto for two instruments of widely differing compasses. Mozart went for violin and viola, whereas Beethoven used a piano to fill in the gap. If what he produced doesn't satisfy every listener, that's too bad. I have always found it a thoroughly satisfying piece.

Indeed. One might say about the two piano concerti that they are, to paraphrase Jane Austen, "perfect despite their faults".

[Lento]

For me, Beethoven's Triple and Brahms's Double are examples of the old convivial music

Nice expression.

[teamsaint]

... a leetle sententious?

Are you claiming that these pertick'ler works are above / beyond criticism?

Or are you making the still stronger claim that the fault always lies within the hearer, never within the work?

Looks like a cheeky attempt to get some critical theory into the discussion.

although that observation probably says more about me as a reader than ...etc etc etc

Love Friday afternoons. Pub lunch, chew fat about theory and the weekend footy, pretend to work...oh to be a civil servant in the 80's again.......

edit: any old how, back on topic, quite like the DC, but need to seek out a really good performance.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have things I have to do today, so I shall return to vinty's point later. But I do object to "a leetle sententious": even at my lowest, I am never less than paragraphacious!

[Stanfordian]

Indeed. One might say about the two piano concerti that they are, to paraphrase Jane Austen, "perfect despite their faults".

I've never really got on with the Brahms Double concerto. I saw it performed last year and it made little difference. Other works that do nothing for me in spite of many attempts include:
Franck Symphonic variations
Variations on a Theme by Haydn

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... a leetle sententious?
Are you claiming that these pertick'ler works are above / beyond criticism?
Or are you making the still stronger claim that the fault always lies within the hearer, never within the work?

I was going to start by saying that it wasn't meant to be sententious - but then realized that that would be a redundant statement: is any sententious comment intended to be so ... ?

Anyroadup - "above/beyond criticism"? Depends what you mean by "criticism" - these four Concertos are superb works that repay repeated careful listenings; each hearing revealing new facets of ingenuity and mastery. It becomes clearer and clearer that each moment is placed so precisely that each takes from what has gone before, and contributes to what happens subsequently: there isn't a moment that is technically "wrong" - in the aesthetic terms that the composer sets himself (the tradition in which he chose to work), there isn't a passage, or a bar, or a chord that can objectively be described as "flawed". There aren't many composers who can do this consistently, work after work.

"Fault" is not a word I used or would use - I said that any perceived flaws (such as finding the First Piano Concerto over rhetorical) tells us nothing about the work itself: if it were genuinely so, it would never have entered the repertoire with the wide-ranging acceptance that it has. It speaks only of the listener(s) who do find it so; non-judgementally showing ourselves to ourselves, just as a mirror put somewhere we weren't expecting it shows us a candid, non-judgemental image of ourselves away from the poses we make when we know we're going to see a reflection.

I don't see this as sententious - just a simple statement of "fact": the facts that are part of the purpose of Art. If I did not believe this, I wouldn't have devoted so much of my life to it (there are much easier ways of earning a lot more money). Amongst many other glorious (and a few negative) attributes, Art confronts us with ourselves: this is who we are - this is what gives us joy, this is what repels us; and brings us into communion with others (both those who share our enthusiasms, and those who are bewildered by them) and with ourselves.

It's something I believe deserves to be celebrated, cherished - and funded!

[Barbirollians]

I was going to start by saying that it wasn't meant to be sententious - but then realized that that would be a redundant statement: is any sententious comment intended to be so ... ?

Anyroadup - "above/beyond criticism"? Depends what you mean by "criticism" - these four Concertos are superb works that repay repeated careful listenings; each hearing revealing new facets of ingenuity and mastery. It becomes clearer and clearer that each moment is placed so precisely that each takes from what has gone before, and contributes to what happens subsequently: there isn't a moment that is technically "wrong" - in the aesthetic terms that the composer sets himself (the tradition in which he chose to work), there isn't a passage, or a bar, or a chord that can objectively be described as "flawed". There aren't many composers who can do this consistently, work after work.

"Fault" is not a word I used or would use - I said that any perceived flaws (such as finding the First Piano Concerto over rhetorical) tells us nothing about the work itself: if it were genuinely so, it would never have entered the repertoire with the wide-ranging acceptance that it has. It speaks only of the listener(s) who do find it so; non-judgementally showing ourselves to ourselves, just as a mirror put somewhere we weren't expecting it shows us a candid, non-judgemental image of ourselves away from the poses we make when we know we're going to see a reflection.

I don't see this as sententious - just a simple statement of "fact": the facts that are part of the purpose of Art. If I did not believe this, I wouldn't have devoted so much of my life to it (there are much easier ways of earning a lot more money). Amongst many other glorious (and a few negative) attributes, Art confronts us with ourselves: this is who we are - this is what gives us joy, this is what repels us; and brings us into communion with others (both those who share our enthusiasms, and those who are bewildered by them) and with ourselves.

It's something I believe deserves to be celebrated, cherished - and funded!

Good stuff fhgl.

Meanwhile I have discovered another recording of the Second which I find very interesting - Anda/Fricsay from 1961 . Some rather interesting rubato in places but overall a very joyful account with a particularly delightful finale .

[Rolmill]

Meanwhile I have discovered another recording of the Second which I find very interesting - Anda/Fricsay from 1961 . Some rather interesting rubato in places but overall a very joyful account with a particularly delightful finale .

Yes, it's my favourite recording (cf #65 above) - possibly just because it was my first, of course - the last movement trips along beautifully. In fact, I find this the performance that best retains an airy lightness throughout.

[maestro267]

I prefer the D minor Concerto to the B flat personally. Much more stormy and turbulent, and the end of the first movement is one of Brahms' most dramatic and powerful.

[BBMmk2]

I like them all, the two pc's, and the double. I still love that cycle that the CoE gave with Harnoncourt, of the symphonies and concerti. Cannot remember the pianist's name?

[Barbirollians]

The Brendel/BPO/Ababado recording of the Second Concerto is magnificent - I prefer it even to the Gilels/BPO/Jochum.

Thanks to this I was lucky enough to pick up an ex library copy on Anazon for 60p !

It is indeed magnificent and Brendel is supported by a quite terrific accompaniment from BPO/Abbado - I imagine it was around the time of their excellent Beahms symphony cycle too much more convincing and enjoyable than I recall his earlier performance being .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

[Barbirollians]

Amazon has now yielded IP a very cheap copy of the Brendel/Abbado Brahms 1 . Refreshingly non monumental , an exceptionally lovely second movement and exciting but honest finale. I prefer it to his later live account and thus joins the top table

[Barbirollians]

Having been at the concert in Sheffield where Sunwook Kim played both concertos with the Halle and Elder just before they recorded them I am struck by the fact that the D Minor comes across better on disc than in the hall . At the time I almost wondered as if they had spent much more time rehearsing the B Flat . On disc this is a performance of the First uncommonly lacking in grandiosity and to great effect . A great deal of sensitive and subtle playing from Kim and sympathetically accompanied with some lovely woodwind playing .

[Barbirollians]

The Sunwook Kim recording of the B Flat is very lovely too and how wonderful the Halle sound Barbirolli would have loved how wonderful his orchestra is now .