Brahms: Piano concerti nos 1 & 2

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Should have put the remark in quotes, but assumed it was too well known to need it...

So ... you did intend to suggest that the third movement of the Second Piano Concerto seems "like an afterthought; almost impossible to relate back to the Homeric achievements of the first half of the work", did you?

Hmmm.

I seeeee .....

[visualnickmos]

Not as frightening as opening a concert with Weber's Oberon overture!

In fact, it starts in the comfortable middle of the instrument's range.

With Brahms, in all his works, it is the 3rd horn who is given those high parts to play.

Let me explain why:

If for instance a work is written in a minor key, say, D minor, the valveless horn in Brahms day could not produce the minor third (F natural in this case), so Brahms would write for another set of horns (Both sets marked as Horns ! & 2) in the Relative Major - in this case, F major. So the 3rd and 4th horns in the modern orchestra find themselves playing the important solos at a higher (and therefore more dangerously exposed} level most of the time. Both of the Brahms concertos follow this pattern, as do his symphonies.

So the opening bars of the second concerto are a lot less frightening than the higher solos played by the 3rd horn.



Confused? Well we horn players like to keep alive the myth that the horn is the most difficult instrument to play. (Try sight reading at the speed of a flautist or violinist! *All instruments are written these days to the limit of their capacity and beyond, but we like to keep the myth going.

HS

As ever, HS, your posts are bursting with knowledge and interesting stories, facts and anecdotes - ever thought of publishing? It'd be fabulous reading.....

[Lento]

Stephen Hough once said that, while he could see how the 2nd was probably the better piece, the 1st was the greater...but later felt differently after playing them back-to-back and recording them.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/jan/06/brahms-piano-concertos-stephen-hough

[Petrushka]

I came very late to the Brahms Piano Concertos finding them both rather forbidding so left them alone for years. Perhaps being older helps but I now have loads of versions of both concertos on my shelves and I love both of them equally as the mood dictates. A special favourite in the First is Andras Schiff with Solti and the VPO, terrific timps to set the work going. For the Second, I'm fond of Backhaus and the VPO with Karl Böhm.

[cloughie]

I came very late to the Brahms Piano Concertos finding them both rather forbidding so left them alone for years. Perhaps being older helps but I now have loads of versions of both concertos on my shelves and I love both of them equally as the mood dictates. A special favourite in the First is Andras Schiff with Solti and the VPO, terrific timps to set the work going. For the Second, I'm fond of Backhaus and the VPO with Karl Böhm.

The Curzon/van Beium and later Curzon/Szell are favourites of mine in No1 and Ashkenazy/Mehta in No2, but there is also an earlier Bachaus/Schuricht No2 which though showing its age as a recording is an excellent performance.

[gurnemanz]

the Kovacevich/Sawallisch on EMI in No1

.. and number 2 with the interesting coupling of Ann Murray singing five songs, including "Immer leiser" which uses the lovely cello tune from the Andante.

[richardfinegold]

Two just seems to sit more naturally on the instrument. It sounds like a Concerto with Symphonic aspirations.
One sounds like a Symphony twisted into a Concerto.

[visualnickmos]

.....A special favourite in the First is Andras Schiff with Solti and the VPO, terrific timps to set the work going. For the Second, I'm fond of Backhaus and the VPO with Karl Böhm.

I couldn't agree more - possibly my favourite first..... what a pity the same team never recorded the second - AFAIK?

[Richard Tarleton]

I heard Alfred Brendel play no 2 in the RFH (on 27.06.1971) with the Philharmonia and Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt, and had a look in "The Veil of Order" to remind myself what he had to say on the subject. Somewhat to my surprise, I'd forgotten, it is this

Martin Meyer:...Are you as enthusiastic about the B flat major concerto as the D minor?

AB: I was never that taken by the B flat major. I've played it, because it's a great challenge, and because I wanted to see to what extent I could master it. I have never been satisfied with my performances. I find the first movement wonderful, the others, however, not on the same level. I would defend every note of the D minor concerto.

[Hornspieler]

I heard Alfred Brendel play no 2 in the RFH (on 27.06.1971) with the Philharmonia and Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt, and had a look in "The Veil of Order" to remind myself what he had to say on the subject. Somewhat to my surprise, I'd forgotten, it is this

I find the last few posts very interesting.

Yes, I enjoy the "Big licks" for the 1st and 3rd horns in Nº 2, but I think the D minor is musically far superior

Of the other concertos, I think the violin concerto is an outstanding vehicle for the soloists, second possibly only to the Beethoven.

The double concerto?

A load of rubbish. Brahms should have known better.

(Only my own assessment, of course and nothing to do with the horn parts)

HS

[Richard Tarleton]

Of the other concertos, I think the violin concerto is an outstanding vehicle for the soloists, second possibly only to the Beethoven.

It's very fine, I've had the good fortune to attend a couple of great performances, but find at least a grain of truth in von Bülow's comments (at least as far as the violin's first entry is concerned) and Sarasate's on the second movement...that oboe solo the emotional core of the work, IMVHO....

[rauschwerk]

The double concerto?

A load of rubbish. Brahms should have known better

Is it the material, or what Brahms does with it, or both?

[Nick Armstrong]

The double concerto?

A load of rubbish. Brahms should have known better.

(Only my own assessment, of course and nothing to do with the horn parts)

HS

I'm glad you said that, HS - it's always struck me as being totally devoid of interest.

Will be interesting to see whether anyone comes along to defend it !

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm glad you said that, HS - it's always struck me as being totally devoid of interest.
Will be interesting to see whether anyone comes along to defend it !

Sort yourselves out, you two boys at the back!

[Lento]

The double concerto?

A load of rubbish. Brahms should have known better.

(Only my own assessment, of course and nothing to do with the horn parts)

HS

At least it's better than the Beethoven Triple.