Shostakovich 4: anyone else got a 'problem piece' by a beloved composer?

[Nick Armstrong]

So you didn't pen this m'learned?

Indeed... please see my amended post!! But it also sounds a great candidate for Old Grumpy's thread!!

[antongould]

So you didn't pen this m'learned?

Cross posted with your edit showing the penny dropping.......

When I commit my next murder I may look elsewhere for a defence..........................

[Nick Armstrong]

Cross posted with your edit showing the penny dropping.......

When I commit my next murder I may look elsewhere for a defence..........................

Indeed... I would suggest a criminal lawyer, unlike myself!

Meanwhile... back on thread / topic.... ....



I have today listened to the Raiskin performance of Shostakovich 4, as recommended above... thoughts to follow...

[Nick Armstrong]

Impressive performance by Raiskin and the Mainz orchestra, very well recorded indeed.

And yet... I still don't get the piece. I can hear many of the DSCH 'fingerprints' of course, the angry music, the brooding music, the ironic music... But I can't grasp any direction, any logic, any narrative. It seems like a jumble of many or most of the ingredients which he was going to refine, order, deploy later.

It reminds me of the problem I have with Prokofiev's symphonies - I recognise the sounds, the elements of his language, but I just can't make sense of them... With Prokofiev, they make sense to me when organised into, say, a ballet like 'Romeo & Juliet' - with DSCH, they make sense in his later symphonies from the 5th onwards (and his other music).

I will get my Barshai CD out of its box and give that a listen too. I'm annoyed I don't understand!!

[Petrushka]

Impressive performance by Raiskin and the Mainz orchestra, very well recorded indeed.

And yet... I still don't get the piece. I can hear many of the DSCH 'fingerprints' of course, the angry music, the brooding music, the ironic music... But I can't grasp any direction, any logic, any narrative. It seems like a jumble of many or most of the ingredients which he was going to refine, order, deploy later.

It reminds me of the problem I have with Prokofiev's symphonies - I recognise the sounds, the elements of his language, but I just can't make sense of them... With Prokofiev, they make sense to me when organised into, say, a ballet like 'Romeo & Juliet' - with DSCH, they make sense in his later symphonies from the 5th onwards (and his other music).

I will get my Barshai CD out of its box and give that a listen too. I'm annoyed I don't understand!!

Just about to put the LPO/Haitink version in the CD player.

The first recording I bought was the Ormandy back in 1976 followed by Previn in 1978 and I've never had any problem with the piece. I suspect that Caliban's problem is that there are so many ideas in the work that appear once never to be heard again. The impression is of a chaotic jumble, particularly in the two outer movements. I've always found it hilarious that the episode around the solo trombone in the finale is DSCH mocking the speaking voices of the Party officials including Stalin himself. Apparently.

[roberta]

Just about to put the LPO/Haitink version in the CD player.

The first recording I bought was the Ormandy back in 1976 followed by Previn in 1978 and I've never had any problem with the piece. I suspect that Caliban's problem is that there are so many ideas in the work that appear once never to be heard again. The impression is of a chaotic jumble, particularly in the two outer movements. I've always found it hilarious that the episode around the solo trombone in the finale is DSCH mocking the speaking voices of the Party officials including Stalin himself. Apparently.

i am confused - didn't realise you had to 'get it' or 'understand it'. maybe classical music isn't for me after all been playing loads of cds from my dad's collection (while he's outta the country ) and loading loads of stuff onto my ipod, notebook etc. Metal, punk classic etc. - don't think Wagner is for me, but i like Shostakovich #4, sugarcubes, jam, karajans 1963 beethoven cds, king crimson and Zeppelin.

went to the unis music soc and it was soooo anal. cant i just like things or do i have to intellectualise it?

[Bryn]

i am confused - didn't realise you had to 'get it' or 'understand it'. maybe classical music isn't for me after all been playing loads of cds from my dad's collection (while he's outta the country ) and loading loads of stuff onto my ipod, notebook etc. Metal, punk classic etc. - don't think Wagner is for me, but i like Shostakovich #4, sugarcubes, jam, karajans 1963 beethoven cds, king crimson and Zeppelin.

went to the unis music soc and it was soooo anal. cant i just like things or do i have to intellectualise it?

roberta, I am only too happy for a musical work to get me, rather than me get it.

[rauschwerk]

i am confused - didn't realise you had to 'get it' or 'understand it'. maybe classical music isn't for me after all.

I don't use the expression myself but to my mind, 'getting' a piece of music is like 'getting' a joke: if you don't get it and someone has to explain it then it's no longer funny to you.

To take as an example the Tallis Lamentations: many people I know love this piece and consider it a masterpiece, but I don't care for it at all. Knowing how it's put together might be interesting (to me) in itself but is very unlikely to persuade me to like it.

If you will just go ahead and feel free to just like things, then you'll find that of course classical music (not necessarily all of it) is for you. Sounds as though the Uni music soc won't help you to do that so stay away.

[Nick Armstrong]

cant i just like things or do i have to intellectualise it?

All I mean when I use the word 'get' is whatever makes Shostakovich #4 appeal to you rather than Wagner... 'get' for me is a mixture of liking what I'm hearing, and 'getting' or grasping what the writer is trying to say.

For me anyway (and I think people's response to music varies widely) it's like hearing someone talking to you - sometimes you just 'get' and really like the person, what they're saying, the way they're saying it, the emotion behind what they're saying, the emotion it inspires in you as you listen to them ... Sometimes, you just don't!

[BBMmk2]

Bbm, I love you and I want to have your babies!!!

I remember that concert being programmed, I think, and toyed with the idea of going - DSCH4 was already a puzzle to me, and I wanted to try and crack it. Didn't go though... Lucky you!!

Aww Caliban!! :)

That's how it all began for me that concert!

[Nick Armstrong]

roberta, I am only too happy for a musical work to get me, rather than me get it.

that's a very good way of putting it too

[Nick Armstrong]

Aww Caliban!! :)

That's how it all began for me that concert!

[ahinton]

roberta, I am only too happy for a musical work to get me, rather than me get it.

Three cheers for that! This is how it's supposed to work and I can certainly testify to it having done so for me (albeit not only with Shostakovich 4, of course!)...

[Richard Tarleton]

My problem child? Bruckner 2. I've tried, goodness me I've tried, but it simply will not 'gel'.

Petrushka I realise that, in spite of Bruckner being one of my most beloved composers, I don't know 2 (or 0) at all. I wonder if it's a bit the same as being a devoted Wagnerite, but never having heard Die Feen, or Das Liebesverbot, or the whole of Rienzi ?

Having said that I'm getting to know Bruckner 1 in the 1866, RSNO/Tintner recording, and think I do "get" it, or it me. I struggle a bit with the 1873 original version of 3 having grown up with the 1878 version in the Haitink/C'gebouw recording (indeed Haitink in 3 was my first live Bruckner, back in 1972).

Anyway on the strength of your post I've ordered Tintner in 2. After your post and Robert Simpson ch 3 I have to say I come to it with low expectations. Then I'll think about whether to try 0.

[roberta]

roberta, I am only too happy for a musical work to get me, rather than me get it.

Bryn i'm gonna use this approach - thanks!