Are You A 'New World' Symphony Snob?

[BBMmk2]

They're talking about this Decca one

[cloughie]

The Philips one now on Decca. Ironical that the Kertesz and Rowicki sets which competed for our affections in the 60s are now both on Decca.

[Lat-Literal]

The idea of snob here is in reference to its over-familiarity. However, beyond Shaftesbury, displaced, there are too many unknowns for it to be familiar at all. "Goin' Home" - Was it Burleigh who I mentioned in another thread or rather William Arms Fisher? That sort of question. That is not to deny its popularity. By 2002, 16th on the Desert Island Discs list:

http://www.americanmusicpreservation.com/GoinHome.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/1879322.stm

I love "Goin' Home" but am not sure I am wholly persuaded by the symphony in its entirety. One thing I did try to do with this thread in mind was discover who on DID chose it other than Margaret Thatcher, ie to whom precisely does it appeal? Well, I didn't get far in that search other than to discover Fred Trueman selected it as the one of his eight he would take to a desert island. It might be interesting in a separate thread to consider the 20 in the 2002 DID list as a whole. Any wonderful surprises? Anything shockingly awful?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The idea of snob here is in reference to its over-familiarity.

I'm grateful that you've given some sort of guideline, Lats - I haven't quite worked out what "snob" might mean in such a context (other than "Do you like the New World Symphony but pretend that you don't in order to look 'sophisticated'?" - to which it could also be asked "Do you dislike the New World Symphony, but pretend that you do in order not to look like a 'snob'?" Who is going to answer "yes" to either question?)

FWiW - the work has been the only piece written between 1815 and 1925 that I've listened to in the past fortnight: the magnificent Macal/LPO recording that Barbi reminded me about in #111). Wow! What a superb and exciting performance (Dave's "OK" in #114 is a serious undervaluation) - a performance like this, with its equal focus on structural awareness, dramatic intensity, and lyrical momentum is one of those that convinces me that this is the only piece I want to be listening to at the time I listen to it.

[Lat-Literal]

I'm grateful that you've given some sort of guideline, Lats - I haven't quite worked out what "snob" might mean in such a context (other than "Do you like the New World Symphony but pretend that you don't in order to look 'sophisticated'?" - to which it could also be asked "Do you dislike the New World Symphony, but pretend that you do in order not to look like a 'snob'?" Who is going to answer "yes" to either question?)

FWiW - the work has been the only piece written between 1815 and 1925 that I've listened to in the past fortnight: the magnificent Macal/LPO recording that Barbi reminded me about in #111). Wow! What a superb and exciting performance (Dave's "OK" in #114 is a serious undervaluation) - a performance like this, with its equal focus on structural awareness, dramatic intensity, and lyrical momentum is one of those that convinces me that this is the only piece I want to be listening to at the time I listen to it.

Your first point, ferney, made me chuckle.

The second - especially re timing - prompted me to review and reassess the American Music Preservation link in my previous post. I think it is a muddle which in turn has muddled me. The Fisher point which is ostensibly about lyrics has a later 20th Century application and I am not convinced by Burleigh being in essence its author. He was a collector first and foremost although also a lot more. You mention 1815 which more or less marks the end of the classical period with the romantic period having started slightly earlier and about 35-40 years of overlapping. I'm just wondering if there is anything really definitive about its origins given that the slaves were first exposed to religious music around that time!?

[Barbirollians]

I'm grateful that you've given some sort of guideline, Lats - I haven't quite worked out what "snob" might mean in such a context (other than "Do you like the New World Symphony but pretend that you don't in order to look 'sophisticated'?" - to which it could also be asked "Do you dislike the New World Symphony, but pretend that you do in order not to look like a 'snob'?" Who is going to answer "yes" to either question?)

FWiW - the work has been the only piece written between 1815 and 1925 that I've listened to in the past fortnight: the magnificent Macal/LPO recording that Barbi reminded me about in #111). Wow! What a superb and exciting performance (Dave's "OK" in #114 is a serious undervaluation) - a performance like this, with its equal focus on structural awareness, dramatic intensity, and lyrical momentum is one of those that convinces me that this is the only piece I want to be listening to at the time I listen to it.

It is splendid in all departments I agree . Thrillingly urgent but tender and indeed superbly structured . as in the Dvorak 8 I heard the other day it is all too easy to performances of the late Dvorak Symphonies to turn into a parade of tunes and not much else.

[Hornspieler]

It is splendid in all departments I agree . Thrillingly urgent but tender and indeed superbly structured . as in the Dvorak 8 I heard the other day it is all too easy to performances of the late Dvorak Symphonies to turn into a parade of tunes and not much else.

The second subject in the slow movement of the symphony has a wonderful "walking bass" line which has always impressed me - it is a tune in its own right, so, when a small group of players from the Bournemouth orchestra formed a group to earn themselves some extra beer money, in the style of Herb Alpert's Tijuana jazz band, I siezed the opportunity to write them a piece which I called "Anton's Tune", incorporating Dvorak's melody and that wonderful running bass line.

The group, led by the trumpet player Paul Ringham, comprised 2 trumpets 2 trombones, vibraphone, drums, guitar and string bass (bass guitar) They called themselves "The London Tijuana Band", made a couple of disks and sought to widen their field of activity.

I was working for the BBC at that time and managed to secure them an audition with Bristol's Light Music Producer who offered them a couple of broadcast slots on one of the late night programmes.

Standard Tijuana style items such as "Tijuana Taxi" and "The Entertainer" (arranged by the clarinetist Norman Hallam) but room for more.

So I made an arrangement of Tuxedo Junction, in the original one-step tempo of Ken "Snakehips Johnson" (Not that slow Glenn Miller version) and also I included my "Anton's Tune" to feature Dvorak's superb walking bass line.

I have a CD recording of that broadcast somewhere on my shelves.

Well, if Benny Goodman could get away with playing Weber's "Invitation to the Dance" as his band's signature tune (He called it "Let's Dance") Why should Dvorak's masterpiece not be given similar reincarnation?

HS

[Pabmusic]

The second subject in the slow movement of the symphony has a wonderful running bass line which has always impressed me - it is a tune in its own right...

Spot on!

[Flosshilde]

Totally off-topic, but when did a collection of symphonies come to be known as a 'cycle'? Several posts in this thread refer to a 'cycle' of Dvoak's symphonies; I don't know enough (anything) about them, but do thet really have the interconnectedness that the term 'cycle' implies? Or is it a handy marketing term for record companies, suggesting that you should buy complete sets?

[Bryn]

Totally off-topic, but when did a collection of symphonies come to be known as a 'cycle'? Several posts in this thread refer to a 'cycle' of Dvoak's symphonies; I don't know enough (anything) about them, but do thet really have the interconnectedness that the term 'cycle' implies? Or is it a handy marketing term for record companies, suggesting that you should buy complete sets?

A decidedly inapposite use of the term, to my mind. I prefer to refer to symphonic "surveys".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Totally off-topic, but when did a collection of symphonies come to be known as a 'cycle'? Several posts in this thread refer to a 'cycle' of Dvoak's symphonies; I don't know enough (anything) about them, but do thet really have the interconnectedness that the term 'cycle' implies? Or is it a handy marketing term for record companies, suggesting that you should buy complete sets?

Probably the latter - and you and Bryn are right about the inaccuracy of the description.

[Flosshilde]

Much as I thought

& sorry to continue OT - I wonder how many composers, if any, have actually written a symphonic cycle - Mahler, perhaps (or more than one)?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Much as I thought
& sorry to continue OT - I wonder how many composers, if any, have actually written a symphonic cycle - Mahler, perhaps (or more than one)?

Tricky - unless a composer actually makes clear that a group of works are connected, it can be difficult to tell which features are specifically-intended thematic/motivic links and which are just the composer's personal stylistic "fingerprints". (As an example, there are features in Brahms' Fourth that make me wonder if that work was not intended as a "summing-up" of his Symphonic "thought" - little hints of features that appear in the previous three.)

[teamsaint]

Much as I thought

& sorry to continue OT - I wonder how many composers, if any, have actually written a symphonic cycle - Mahler, perhaps (or more than one)?

William Alwyn.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/aug/13/william-alwyn-first-symphony-proms-royal-albert-hall

the rest of the Proms cycle seems sure to follow soon.........honest...............

[Ferretfancy]

Totally off-topic, but when did a collection of symphonies come to be known as a 'cycle'? Several posts in this thread refer to a 'cycle' of Dvoak's symphonies; I don't know enough (anything) about them, but do thet really have the interconnectedness that the term 'cycle' implies? Or is it a handy marketing term for record companies, suggesting that you should buy complete sets?

Round about the time when a single pop LP became an album, I think. In my youth, collections of 78s or LPs in a box were albums, but in the sixties the name got hijacked. There's no reason why this should irritate me, but it does.