I have seen the future ...

[gingerjon]

And reading the Chris Gillett piece I feel more sad than angry. Commercial promotion, advertising, glamour raise people up to undeserved artistic status. It's the agents, managers and the whole publicity circus that are the real villains: the victims are the self-deluded - and very rich - individuals on whom all the celebrity falls.

Genuine criticism is out of favour, replaced by hype which is good enough for the general public who fork out the money. And the BBC which used to know better no longer does. The puppet-masters control them too.

I genuinely don't have a problem with the Katherine Jenkins of this world making huge amounts of money and having millions of adoring fans etc etc. The music isn't always to my taste but it clearly does resonate with a great many people. They're not all deluded although it is sad that despite 'classical' music being more accessible than ever (see the quantity and quality available on YouTube and Spotify as examples) there's no obvious pathway or support for people not brought up with that music. It's unlikely that hearing Katherine Jenkins sing Nessun Dorma (here) will lead many people to delve into Puccini.

But none of the narrowing and focus on only select popular 'brands' is limited to this music. Wherever you look it seems to be a much less diverse mainstream musical landscape. The singles charts are pretty much down to one style of pop music, the albums charts dominated it seems by brand artists who have a decade or more of producing very similar material and most other forms of music relegated to the margins identified only by one or two names.

The same is probably true - at least in terms of income - for most of the arts now.

But I am hopeful. I am hopeful simply because there is so much quality and diversity out there away from the mainstream. I am hopeful because despite the PR drives the sales of the forced mainstream are falling and so are audiences and viewing figures. Look at the bookshelves at what is selling there: people are, remarkably, seeking out information and knowledge. They may not be outselling J K Rowling (good storyteller, not good writer) but they are selling at levels that would have been unthinkable when the only 'smart' book people bought was a Brief History of Time.

Finally, I do think the BBC gets a remarkably hard time. Perhaps I don't remember when Radio 3 was only a 'classical' music station. When I grew up it hosted Test Match Special for most of the summer, had a significant amount of jazz, world music and plenty of diversions into conversation. For all its faults, there is still no other station like it on the dial. The mornings may sound a bit Classic FM (but then, bizarrely, listening to Classic FM does not ever sound a bit like listening to Radio 3) but then it wouldn't be serving its entire audience if every programme was a solemn introduction to a complete piece.

[french frank]

gj

1. If I'm typical (!) 'most people' aren't envious of the wealth, adulation, appearance &c. of celebrities in general - even where one might feel that material rewards are not fairly distributed. I have never personally met any mature adult who wanted to be extremely rich and famous to such an extent that it motivated their actions (clearly they do exist, though).

2. I didn't suggest that members of the public who enjoyed the performances of KJ, AB, RW were 'deluded' - but performers who imagined that they were top flight classical performers because they were promoted in that way to the public would be deluded. I suspect most of them are pretty hard-headed and are well aware that they would have no career within the world of classical music - engagements with recognised opera companies, Wigmore recitals &c.

3. Yes, I think there probably is a parallel in the popular music industry - a big general appetite for 'more of the same'. The existence of a service like 6 Music shows (I don't say with what success) that there is under the general umbrella of 'popular music' - for want of a better term - a more rarified sector, away from the charts, the big money, the adulation, with a knowledgeable, appreciative audience for a range of interesting, skilful musicianship.

4. I suppose I am less hopeful than you are when distinctions between superior musicianship and popular appeal, in terms of appreciation, become blurred: when the advertising message gains wider and wider currency, and objecting to that message is written off as elitism or snobbishness.

5.

Finally, I do think the BBC gets a remarkably hard time. Perhaps I don't remember when Radio 3 was only a 'classical' music station.

I'm not sure that this is an issue at all. Anyone who thinks that the Third Programme/Radio 3 was ever exclusively 'a classical music station' is misremembering or speaking of what they wot not of. It wasn't, and I see no reason why it should be (and many reasons why it should not).

What caused me to start this thread was that - as I saw it - the BBC was clearly propagating the advertising message: that the Classic Brits stars make 'classical music' more accessible, when, for example, a KJ album contains very little that anyone could possibly claim to be classical. The people who buy this album are being told this is 'classical music'. Or perhaps something called 'classical crossover' - which means what, exactly?

What needs to be scrutinised is the implication of the term 'accessible'. Spotify and YouTube make classical music widely available (a good thing). Do they make it accessible? They actually do provide an opportunity for anyone to compare Beverley Sills (say) singing Una voce poco fa with KJ's version. I don't understand how you can make classical music 'accessible' to people who have no interest beyond the personality/appearance/qualities of one celebrity performer.

[DracoM]

CFM seems to class anything that has an orchestra in it as 'classical'.

There is and always has been a sub-class of light orchestral, instrumental and vocal music that a heck of a lot of performers and composers in this and past ages have increasingly tapped into because by and large there are quick and not terribly demanding bucks to be made from it. The link between that sub-genre and 'real' classical is tricky to spot and work. If I listen to KJ singing Nessun Dorma, will I then go on to 'Turandot'? All three hours of it before 'the big tune' arrives? No chance - or maybe once and never again.

The BBC have a problem with their definitions of 'accessibility' and 'elitisim'. I stress THEIR definitions. It is all about ratings, numbers, profile. It is not about quality, incremental education in the widest sense.

[gingerjon]

CFM seems to class anything that has an orchestra in it as 'classical'.

My beef with Classic FM is that every bloody section is designed to relax and soothe. I want my gypsies sultry and my men furious - and my widows sobbing. They can't be that if they're in Relaxing Classics at Lunchtime. Which I guess fits in with my wider problem (hinted at above) that music (all music) has become a bit of a lifestyle accompaniment. I don't care what genre music you're listening to but to me it should be damn hard to do anything else whilst it's playing because it's grabbed you and won't let go.

The thing I like about Classic FM is that they sponsor a lot of orchestras around the country and promote their performances. I think, on balance, the classical world would be a lot poorer in every sense without it.

Anyway ... back to the very interesting 'accessible' points. It's actually surprising (well, it was to me) to look over the past winners of the Event Formerly Called The Classical BRITS and see who the awards have gone to. There is a mix of the crossover and the complex. Maybe the argument that they offer a 'way in' isn't completely wrongheaded?

The BBC have a problem with their definitions of 'accessibility' and 'elitisim'. I stress THEIR definitions. It is all about ratings, numbers, profile. It is not about quality, incremental education in the widest sense.

This doesn't just seem to be the BBC. My children are getting old enough that I'm thinking of taking them to a family concert but when I look over the listings I see only orchestras too scared to put out music and let people listen.

[Serial_Apologist]

The mornings may sound a bit Classic FM (but then, bizarrely, listening to Classic FM does not ever sound a bit like listening to Radio 3) but then it wouldn't be serving its entire audience if every programme was a solemn introduction to a complete piece.

I often wonder what the great composers of the past would have thought about their music being presented in some future age in the ways that it is, and having no redress.

[french frank]

The Breakfast discussion recently turned to the Benedetti version of Hess's Ladies in Lavender theme, played twice recently, and notable in that NB was apparently playing the trumpet in one version. Rather endearing that, in stooping to conquer, Radio 3 can't even get the details right ...

Currently No 141 in Classic FM's Hall of Fame? The fact that NB was playing it makes it 'crossover' - it doesn't make it classical.

To play the same piece twice in six weeks begins to look suspicious. But we do know that this is all about Radio 3 making classical music 'accessible', presumably to the CFM audience.

[MrGongGong]

This doesn't just seem to be the BBC. My children are getting old enough that I'm thinking of taking them to a family concert but when I look over the listings I see only orchestras too scared to put out music and let people listen.

BCMG do the best ones I have been to

http://www.bcmg.org.uk/gallery.php?id=1349

well worth the trip IMV

[gingerjon]

I often wonder what the great composers of the past would have thought about their music being presented in some future age in the ways that it is, and having no redress.

Given how they were presented in the past they'd probably be delighted with the reverence. Especially if they died within 75 years and the royalties are coming in.

[gingerjon]

The Breakfast discussion recently turned to the Benedetti version of Hess's Ladies in Lavender theme, played twice recently, and notable in that NB was apparently playing the trumpet in one version. Rather endearing that, in stooping to conquer, Radio 3 can't even get the details right ...

Currently No 141 in Classic FM's Hall of Fame? The fact that NB was playing it makes it 'crossover' - it doesn't make it classical.

To play the same piece twice in six weeks begins to look suspicious. But we do know that this is all about Radio 3 making classical music 'accessible', presumably to the CFM audience.

I love the first comment on that link - "How are pieces like this above Rite of Spring?" (kudos to Sophie Hill of Cardiff University).

There's also no point R3 playing it if it is to increase listenership as twice in six weeks might be a bit much for the existing audience but it's a long time between drinks for the CFM one whose favourites tend to come up more often.

BCMG do the best ones I have been to

http://www.bcmg.org.uk/gallery.php?id=1349

well worth the trip IMV

Many thanks. I'll look into that.

[jean]

It's actually surprising (well, it was to me) to look over the past winners of the Event Formerly Called The Classical BRITS and see who the awards have gone to.

It's even more surprising to see that according to the Wiki article you linked to, ginger, this year's award for Male Artist of the Year went to no-one.

Whereas in fact it went to Vasily Petrenko.

The writer probably couldn't quite believe that Vasily had won it for the second time - but here, we had no difficulty with that at all.

(Sorry, couldn't help it. As you were.)

[gingerjon]

It's even more surprising to see that according to the Wiki article you linked to, ginger, this year's award for Male Artist of the Year went to no-one.

Whereas in fact it went to Vasily Petrenko.

The writer probably couldn't quite believe that Vasily had won it for the second time - but here, we had no difficulty with that at all.

(Sorry, couldn't help it. As you were.)

Inaccuracies on wikipedia ... I believe that was one of the warning signs of an impending apocalypse ...