Yippeeeee ... ahem

[heliocentric]

my dislike of his operas and his writing about Jews ... this dislike is such as to block thought about the composer .. for me Ades does not go far enough

Those are of course quite legitimate objections to Wagner and his music, even if many might argue that a more nuanced view allows appreciation of the beautiful things in his work without losing sight of the contradictions... but I don't understand this "not going far enough" - Adès' "critique" of Wagner is ill-conceived and incoherent - if he went any "further" he'd be saying that Wagner's "fungal" character could be seen in his strange facial hair configuration. There is plenty of trenchant Wagner criticism which does go a lot further than Adès but proceeds from real insights, not silly metaphors.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

...well he might have taken the totemic issue further, and the myths and intoxication combined with a fuhrer prinzip in art were most unfortunate precursors ... but i freely admit i can not be rational or discursive here ...i am content to just not like the man or his work and occasionally say so, i hope without offence to those who do find the work, at least, irresistible ...

i am fully aware that W's orchestral writing is sublime and inspired the world of music ...but the operas, the personality and the politics are for me utterly detestable ...

[Petrushka]

I suspect many here have shared my experience of utter intoxication with Wagner, the Ring especially, I guess for 10 or 15 years, and then the feeling that it was over - I'm not sure it will ever return... if an excerpt surprises me in a film or on the radio, I can still be seized by it... it retains a unique power. Even now, if I think through the last few minutes of The Ring, I can easily find myself in tears again!

I recognise this! Listening to the Karajan Ring (Rheingold and Walkure) last week I was immediately transported back to the very early 1970s, the period of my 'utter intoxication', and it's every bit as potent as Beatles songs which transport me back to the 1960s.

[amateur51]

I recognise this! Listening to the Karajan Ring (Rheingold and Walkure) last week I was immediately transported back to the very early 1970s, the period of my 'utter intoxication', and it's every bit as potent as Beatles songs which transport me back to the 1960s.

Exactly the same here, Petrushka, except mine was the Furtwangler Ring. I've not heard any of the Karajan effort - would you recommend it?

Whenever I hear the Beatles I'm 16 again

[Dave2002]

Exactly the same here, Petrushka, except mine was the Furtwangler Ring. I've not heard any of the Karajan effort - would you recommend it?

Whenever I hear the Beatles I'm 16 again

And I'm afraid I'm 64!

[Petrushka]

I've not heard any of the Karajan effort - would you recommend it?

I've only heard Rheingold and Walkure so far but the answer is yes. Reviews that speak of the beauty of the sound that Karajan produces from the BPO had me worried that it would lack dramatic urgency but that's certainly not the case. Vocally, a bit uneven, but then which Ring recording isn't?

I bought my set in the Oxford Street HMV Summer Sale in 2010 for £40.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

16 again

[heliocentric]

I've not heard any of the Karajan effort - would you recommend it?

I would. For me it achieves the perfect spatial and dynamic balance between voices and orchestra. As Petrushka says there are slight weaknesses in the casting but nothing crucial, and they're outweighed for me by the effect of the whole.

I was in my 40s (that's Earth years of course; on Saturn I wasn't quite two) when my fascination for Wagner's music began, so I went into it with my (political) eyes fully open. I don't know if this is the place for a discussion of whether and how someone of socialist convictions might achieve that, but in a nutshell my current feeling is that in Eddie Prévost's words "no sound is innocent"; if you're going to interrogate Wagner's music to expose the contradictions in it, and the tensions between progressive and reactionary thinking, between the Wagner of the attempted 1849 revolution in Dresden and the Wagner of Das Judentum in die Musik, you should really extend that to other musicians too. Miles Davis doesn't look too good from a feminist perspective, for example. Every generalised dismissal of Wagner's music on political grounds is a little victory for the enemy IMO. But if you don't like the sound of it that's another thing.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

don't like the operas full stop ....later learnt to mistrust the composer ...dislike of the operas was an instinctive ugh reaction that has not softened over the decades, then would not spend time on the stuff having read about him ....

no sane person would want to be in the same room as Miles Davis for more than two minutes if it was not a performance arena of some sort .... jazz is well sprinkled with psychopathic junkies who produced great music ...