Classical music as 'protest music'

[mathias broucek]

I'm not sure this is "its more general meaning", mathias - or, at least, this isn't how I understand the word. "Radical" surely means "from the roots up": a complete overhauling of an existing system. Something is seen as inadequate (not "normal and accepted") and needs replacing completely (not merely "deviating from"). Radicals can be Left, Right and anywhere in between; the outcome of radical action can be beneficial or harmful. To suggest that "an enjoyment of classical Music [is] one of the more radical artistic gestures one can make" isn't of itself a "leftist" statement - instead, the suggestion is that a statement of such an enjoyment is part of a fundamental transformation of an existing artistic status quo. Someone from a "rightist" stance could just as easily make such a proclamation.

I think we're agreeing with each other although you have put things far more eloquently. Some earlier posts seemed to be focused on music associated with leftist politics - in other words where the politics may be leftist radical but the music may or may not be.

[heliocentric]

Well there was a story about Xenakis's "Nuits" having acted as a trigger for the student unrest in Paris of May 1968

Do you have any kind of reference for that? because the first student occupation in Paris took place in late March of 1968, and Nuits was premiered in Royan in April, so I very much doubt that it could have had much effect on the "evenements" already under way even if it had been performed in Paris.

[Wheels of Cheese]

This is all absolutely brilliant stuff. I did initially start the thread to experiment with the notion that in a culture which increasingly privileges the brisk, shallow and meaningless that the mere act of taking time to listen to classical music was a radical gesture. But I a also fascinated by the whole culture of the leftist compsers discussed here - Cardew I knew in passing, but Rzewski was completely unfamiliar to me. Sent The Workers United to a couple of friends after listening to the first couple of minutes, thinking, this is a pretty funny idea. But God, it's SO moving. When the whisting starts. Bourgeois term I know, but gosh it is beautiful. And Cardew's book Stockhausen Serves Imperialism is gloriously mad - my favourite sort of thing. Does anyone know of any good books about this whole area?

[Dave2002]

Also, my kids protest when I play classical music on MY stereo !

I was delighted a few years ago, while going through some tube stations (e.g Vauxhall) to hear classical music being played. It was some while before I realised (or was told) that this was being used as a weapon, to get young people who "wouldn't be seen dead at a classical concert" to move on.

[Serial_Apologist]

I was delighted a few years ago, while going through some tube stations (e.g Vauxhall) to hear classical music being played. It was some while before I realised (or was told) that this was being used as a weapon, to get young people who "wouldn't be seen dead at a classical concert" to move on.

Preferable to the supersonic whistle tone either being used or contemplated as an effective means to disperse demonstrators by some regimes!

[heliocentric]

Does anyone know of any good books about this whole area?

There are collections of Cardew's and Rzewski's writings, for example, and Michael Nyman's Experimental Music: Cage and Beyond deals with many of the issues although it's not specifically on this subject; I don't know of anything that concentrates on it exclusively.

[MrGongGong]

Preferable to the supersonic whistle tone either being used or contemplated as an effective means to disperse demonstrators by some regimes!

I think this is the essential text for you on this

http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?tid=11890&ttype=2

lots of stuff (and many urban myths !!) on the net

http://bldgblog.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/sonic-warfare.html

etc etc

[heliocentric]

Yeessss... it should be possible (as a particular kind of "protest music") to use the technology developed for noise-cancelling headphones to emit a phase-inverted version of whatever frequency you're being attacked with.

Is that actually an interesting book, MrGG? From the blurb it strikes me that it could be quite fascinating or on the other hand a waste of shelf-space.

[MrGongGong]

Yeessss... it should be possible (as a particular kind of "protest music") to use the technology developed for noise-cancelling headphones to emit a phase-inverted version of whatever frequency you're being attacked with.

Is that actually an interesting book, MrGG? From the blurb it strikes me that it could be quite fascinating or on the other hand a waste of shelf-space.

I've almost bought it several times !
it had mixed reviews but i've got a pile of unread stuff to read first !

Stockhausen suggested a phase cancelling thing years ago , i think its in the conversations book ?
and I have met someone who was working on a similar technology at Rolls Royce to try and get jet engines to be quieter

phase cancellation can be an interesting process but I think it's hard to get it to work fast enough on complex streams ? (I'm sure there's lots of stuff about this online)

I'd have a look here also

http://wfae.proscenia.net/

[Serial_Apologist]

Fascinating stuff, GG - thanks!

[Dave2002]

Preferable to the supersonic whistle tone either being used or contemplated as an effective means to disperse demonstrators by some regimes!

Do you mean supersonic? I think you mean high frequency.

If the frequencies are high enough, then nobody will hear them anyway, so no effect.
However, there are devices which emit high power whistles which deter young people, but not so many older ones, as the younger people can still hear the high frequencies (though perhaps not for long if in the vicinity of high power high frequency audio).

[MrGongGong]

Do you mean supersonic? I think you mean high frequency.

If the frequencies are high enough, then nobody will hear them anyway, so no effect.
However, there are devices which emit high power whistles which deter young people, but not so many older ones, as the younger people can still hear the high frequencies (though perhaps not for long if in the vicinity of high power high frequency audio).

I think what is referred to is the "mosquito" ring tone etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mosquito

Ultrasonics mmmmmmm

[Dave2002]

Stockhausen suggested a phase cancelling thing years ago , i think its in the conversations book ?
and I have met someone who was working on a similar technology at Rolls Royce to try and get jet engines to be quieter

phase cancellation can be an interesting process but I think it's hard to get it to work fast enough on complex streams ? (I'm sure there's lots of stuff about this online)

I'd have a look here also

http://wfae.proscenia.net/

Some noise cancelling headphones really do work quite well, much to my surprise. They don't simply block the sounds.
Some of the problems with noise cancelling have clearly been overcome. Obviously if there's positive feedback rather than negative, then they could make a poor situation worse.

In theory it should also be possible to use noise cancelling devices inside cars, buses and airplanes to provide a quieter environment.
There's probably not much point in using the systems actually in jet engines.

[heliocentric]

Stockhausen suggested a phase cancelling thing years ago , i think its in the conversations book ?

Yes it is. I might give that other one a go some time, but like yours my unread pile is too threatening at the moment...

[Wheels of Cheese]

Back to the disruptive theory of classical music. Been listening to a lot of Pauline Oliveros, especially this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wrNL063Gys. Is it me or does the very existence of such music attack, let it be said, the whole smug edifice of contemporary capitalism. A bit? A little bit?