Classical music as 'protest music'

[Bryn]

Really enjoying this thread, thanks to all for their contribution. Initially I did mean the notion of the mere act of listening to classical music as having a radical and therefore political ethos, but am loving being introduced to composers who are overtly political in message. Going to listen to a bunch of the above now, although I'm still not sure about Mr Cardew - despite my lefty credentials I think this might be the worst thing (not just music) ever...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXEDZy4Z8os

Dire indeed. I do feel that some of the songs he produced to order for 'The Party' in the late '70s and the first 2 years of the '80s were embarrassingly awful. I could not even get on with the variations on one of them "We Sing for the Future" until Rzewski injected his own improvised cadenzas into it. That said, Cardew was in a period of transition, and his studies at King College London in the last few years of his life were beginning to bear some fruit. He found that having rejected his earlier musical life, he had to learn again from the basics, effectively.

[heliocentric]

Dire indeed

But, I would say, an experiment that had to be made at that time. Cardew was 45 when he died - given his previous evolution, further changes in direction would have been quite possible, and before writing him off one should try to take in his work as a whole - The Great Learning, the collaboration with AMM, the Cage/Stockhausen-influenced works of the late 50s and early 60s (especially the orchestral piece Bun no.1 which gives an impression of how influential Cardew was in his collaboration on Stockhausen's Carré).

The Wikipedia article "Music and politics" contains much useful information.

[Bryn]

But, I would say, an experiment that had to be made at that time. Cardew was 45 when he died - given his previous evolution, further changes in direction would have been quite possible, and before writing him off one should try to take in his work as a whole - The Great Learning, the collaboration with AMM, the Cage/Stockhausen-influenced works of the late 50s and early 60s (especially the orchestral piece Bun no.1 which gives an impression of how influential Cardew was in his collaboration on Stockhausen's Carré).

The Wikipedia article "Music and politics" contains much useful information.

Oh I don't write Cor off by any means. He was very much a mentor to me. That does not prevent me from making clear my 'misgivings' concerning some (much) of the stuff he produced at the behest of the political organisation of which he became a leading light. The only work I had problems with on the Piano album issued by B&L (i.e. the piano works available for download at UBU) was the Variations on We Sing for the Future, and that is pretty much down to the amalgam of the Eton Boating Song and My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean on which it is based. As to The Great Learning, I regard it as a masterpiece. Such a pity that only Paragraph 1 is available commercially in a decent performance (Paras 2 & 7 on DGG are pared down versions, and the Polish workshop performance is pretty much a disgrace.

I'll send you the URLs for recordings of the 1984 and 2000 performances at Union Chapel. Neither performance of Para. 7 sticks to the score in certain ways, but both are far better than the emphysemic performance on the Polish CD set.

[Bryn]

... The Wikipedia article "Music and politics" contains much useful information.

Funnily enough, any Caudwell influence would have come via John Tilbury who was very much the prime advocate of Caudwell's writings and activities during the Scratch Orchestra's discontent meetings. By the time he came to write songs such as "We Sing for the Future", Cardew had rejected Mao in favour of Hoxha and Bains. To that extent the article seems somewhat deficient in its grasp of his political 'development'.

[Serial_Apologist]

Oh I don't write Cor off by any means. He was very much a mentor to me. That does not prevent me from making clear my 'misgivings' concerning some (much) of the stuff he produced at the behest of the political organisation of which he became a leading light. The only work I had problems with on the Piano album issued by B&L (i.e. the piano works available for download at UBU) was the Variations on We Sing for the Future, and that is pretty much down to the amalgam of the Eton Boating Song and My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean on which it is based. As to The Great Learning, I regard it as a masterpiece. Such a pity that only Paragraph 1 is available commercially in a decent performance (Paras 2 & 7 on DGG are pared down versions, and the Polish workshop performance is pretty much a disgrace.

I'll send you the URLs for recordings of the 1984 and 2000 performances at Union Chapel. Neither performance of Para. 7 sticks to the score in certain ways, but both are far better than the emphysemic performance on the Polish CD set.

Bryn I forgot to say thanks for posting the link to the Cardew piano pieces earlier. For me the Thaelmann Variations is the finest among the later works - I have a sneaky feeling that Busoni would have smiled, had he lived to hear it, as it is I think very much in the spirit of his music.

The only time I saw AMM was at the Anson Room at the Bristol University Students' Union. We sat in a semicircle on cushions placed on the floor; the only illumination was provided by candles, and at one point Cardew brought his cello right behind where we were sitting, on the outer perimeter, and played very quietly in a vibrato manner. One thing that was striking about that particular concert was that, towards the end, members of the audience virtually took over the equipment, which, I've seen written, was generally not acepted by the group as part of its performance. I once attended a performance by PLM at the Arnolfini Gallery in Bristol. Afterwards Cornelius invited questions and discussions with the audience, and a member of the Militant Tendency - obviously a "plant" - launched into an amazing vitriolic tirade against the band.

[Bryn]

Yes, Thaelmann Variations is real barn-stormer. Again, Rzewski is a particularly fine exponent of it. He also alludes to it in his "The Workers United ... " variations.

[heliocentric]

Funnily enough, any Caudwell influence would have come via John Tilbury who was very much the prime advocate of Caudwell's writings and activities during the Scratch Orchestra's discontent meetings. By the time he came to write songs such as "We Sing for the Future", Cardew had rejected Mao in favour of Hoxha and Bains. To that extent the article seems somewhat deficient in its grasp of his political 'development'.

Indeed. Probably the writer hadn't consulted Tilbury's biography of Cardew. My link was really principally for Domeyhead since the article gives a reasonable basic overview of politically-engaged music of various kinds, rather than specifically Cardew or anyone else.

[IRF]

Earlier this evening I was listening to a recording of a gig by the band Sun O))) if you need music to make huge demands on it's audience it is maybe more found in that world (and in the commitment and dedication that folk like Evan Parker and Eddie Prevost have had to their music ) more than in the mainstream of classical music ?

I heard Stephen O'Malley live once, not with Sunn O))) but an ad-hoc group with F.M. Einheit, Susan Stenger and Alan Moore.

I still have nightmares


Sorry, I don't actually have an on-topic remark to contribute

[mathias broucek]

Is there anyone who has a sense of classical music, in the complexity of its conception and the demands (emotional as well as intellectual) that it makes on its listener, as being, in a sense, an art embracing protest? In this day and age, professing an enjoyment of classical music seems to me one of the more radical artistic gestures one can make. What do others think?

We seem to have spun-off into a discussion of "radical" meaning leftist rather than its more general meaning deviation from what's normal and accepted.

I do find it fascinating that counter-cultural parts of popular music are now far more mainstream amongst well-educated opinion-formers (e.g. politicians, journalists, teachers) than supposedly conservative (small c) "classical" music.

Insofar as many people choose to encounter "classical" music, it's often as a novelty rather than something they engage in deeply. This may lead to disappointment as it's generally easier to get something from complex music if one's ear is attuned to the genre

BTW I think it's different in some countries. I did some work with a German client in London and their team (in their 30s) all went to ENO to see some Tchaikovsky. I doubt the same would have happened if nationalities were reversed.

[heliocentric]

I think it's different in some countries. I did some work with a German client in London and their team (in their 30s) all went to ENO to see some Tchaikovsky.

There are still almost fifty opera houses in Germany, although the position of "classical" musical culture in Germany is increasingly under threat, as we see from the planned merger of the Southwest German Radio's two symphony orchestras. So the trend is probably in the same direction as in the UK, though starting from a different point. Having said that, and having lived in Germany for some years, I have to add that awareness of music in general, not just "classical" music, seems to be on quite a different level in that country than in the UK.

[Dave2002]

Some music may appear to be protest music, but could instead be commentary on something which has already happened. Coming Together might be one such piece. I don't know whether it has had any effect after the events which prompted its composition. I felt that there were similarities with some of Reiner Goebel's work, such as Songs of Wars I have seen, and that can also be seen as an "after the event" comment, as can Goreceki's third symphony.

Of course such pieces can act as warnings for the future, but they may not have much impact at the time.

Did Johnny Cash's Fulsom Prison Blues have any significant effect? Was it a protest song? I'm not disputing that it became popular.

Going back further, the music of Verdi, which on the face of it does not display signs of protest, but when it was written and performed it was used to support the nationalist movement in Italy. Again, I don't know whether Verdi approved of the way his music was being used for such purposes. He may not have been very active in protesting, but perhaps didn't distance himself from the protests of others.

It could now be easy to say that Shostakovich was writing protest music, but much of this did not get performances until the circumstances surrounding the compositions had passed. Even if musicians write and perform protest music, if they are to survive it may not be prudent to protest too much. The consequence of this would be that when and if such music is accepted, the circumstances for protest may have changed and no longer apply, so that the music again seems to be a historical comment rather than an active protest.

Can we identify any instances of music and compositions which have had a significant effect (hopefully a "good" one) re protest at the time of their composition or performances?

[heliocentric]

Dave, I don't think it's necessarily helpful to judge musical compositions according to what kind of "significant effect" on society they might have had. Consider that Beethoven aligned himself and his music with the French Revolution, but not much more than a century after his death it could be coopted in Germany by a régime whose aims were precisely the opposite of the revolutionaries of 1789 - the very same music may be viewed as a call for emancipation and as an exemplar of chauvinistic and reactionary values. Any specific political function in music has to be served by its text, which is as true of Verdi as it is of Johnny Cash. On the other hand, a composer might think that their music would be in some way incomplete or impoverished if it didn't in some way express a response to their perceptions, hopes and fears about society. Music can't in itself change the course of events, but it's always either a response to or a symptom of those events.

[Serial_Apologist]

Well there was a story about Xenakis's "Nuits" having acted as a trigger for the student unrest in Paris of May 1968

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

We seem to have spun-off into a discussion of "radical" meaning leftist rather than its more general meaning deviation from what's normal and accepted.

I'm not sure this is "its more general meaning", mathias - or, at least, this isn't how I understand the word. "Radical" surely means "from the roots up": a complete overhauling of an existing system. Something is seen as inadequate (not "normal and accepted") and needs replacing completely (not merely "deviating from"). Radicals can be Left, Right and anywhere in between; the outcome of radical action can be beneficial or harmful. To suggest that "an enjoyment of classical Music [is] one of the more radical artistic gestures one can make" isn't of itself a "leftist" statement - instead, the suggestion is that a statement of such an enjoyment is part of a fundamental transformation of an existing artistic status quo. Someone from a "rightist" stance could just as easily make such a proclamation.

[teamsaint]

Sweeping generalisation alert...but I honestly feel that the power and coherence of great music is frightening to those at the top.
they want us working hard, paying for our (intellectually empty)entertainment with large dollops of cash, and with as much inconvenience as possible. If I was in charge and had a vested interest in keeping the population compliant, I would seek to promote things like Spire FM, and marginalise stuff like Beethoven and Schoenberg .

Also, my kids protest when I play classical music on MY stereo !