Ignorance of classical music - does it matter?

[Mary Chambers]

I often say "I've sung it and I know every note, but I'm not sure what it is". Oh dear

[french frank]

I think what we really need , rather than some kind of evangelical promotion of "classical music" which is bound to fail
is a more mindful approach to the whole area of LISTENING
developing sonic awareness is IMV the best way of encouraging people to explore music, sound art and the sounds of their environment. This inevitably leads to an appreciation of a much wider range of musics.

That's fine for people who are interested in 'music' (I'm implying 'music in the widest possible interpretation of the word' - not disparaging).

It's useless if you want to acquaint children with the repertoire of classical music because you think it's worthwhile. It doesn't have to be any more 'evangelical' than teaching French, Maths, Shakespeare ... Education should lead into different worlds, including the world of the past; not leaving them in their own, individual 'here and nows', their interests influenced by their friends on Facebook, always an iPhone call away from them.

'developing sonic awareness' isn't an either/or for introducing them at least to what most people would agree were the masterpieces of the past.

[MrGongGong]

That's fine for people who are interested in 'music' (I'm implying 'music in the widest possible interpretation of the word' - not disparaging).

It's useless if you want to acquaint children with the repertoire of classical music because you think it's worthwhile. .

No it's not useless at all
if you encourage people to be curious about what things sound like then they will be open to explore all kinds of repertoire both in music and other forms of sonic art. If you decide that somehow you need to get people to like Mahler "because it's great music because I say it is" , then you will fail to get people to connect with what is for many of us wonderful music.

Those people who write on classical music messageboards about the teacher who introduced them to the wonders of Buxtehude when they were 12 are a pretty unrepresentative bunch (and I'm not going to go on about the C word again )

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

where is this ?

Are you asking me to identify the school? That's a bit like Margaret Thatcher saying "Who are these people?" when challenged by Australian television in an interview which suggested that some people in Britain did not like her policies.
I can talk generally without being struck off, but not specifically. You must know that.

[MrGongGong]

Are you asking me to identify the school? .

No I wasn't
but i'm curious as I have found many examples of the opposite

[johnb]

Those people who write on classical music messageboards about the teacher who introduced them to the wonders of Buxtehude when they were 12 are a pretty unrepresentative bunch (and I'm not going to go on about the C word again )

This thread has mad me think about what influenced me.

I was brought up in a mainly working class area, with some lower middles. My parents rarely listened to music and definitely not classical. I went to a pretty undistinguished grammar school which had little interest in music as an academic subject. But, and this is a very big but, it had a young and enthusiastic music teacher, David Ellis. (He was also a composer and soon left teaching to become a producer for R3). Amongst other things, had the kids listen to a wide range of classical music to classes, including a lot of C20 music - Beethoven, Walton, Holst, Hindemith, Stravinsky, etc, etc. Amongst my school mates, liking classical music wasn't thought of as odd or elitist.

The school also posted lists of Halle concerts which pupils could book to go at a very reduced price (sitting in the Gods).

I get the impression that the whole ethos has changed over the decades and kids now get very little exposure to classical music, even at school.

[Paul Sherratt]

Encouraging curiosity has to be a Good Thing. My school's music lessons, such that they were, consisted of listening to assorted classical LP's with a token spin
of a record brought in by a pupil.

The day someone brought in The Rolling Stones' version of 'Little Red Rooster' certainly set me off a stimulating, lifetime journey.

[MrGongGong]

I get the impression that the whole ethos has changed over the decades and kids now get very little exposure to classical music, even at school.

I think some of the "problem" is that people get this "impression" without knowing what really happens.
which is not to say that everything is wonderful , far from it.

I've had arguments with people who will insist that there is NO "classical music" in music A level (for example) and even when you show them the syllabus they seem to carry on with their mistaken belief.

In my experience young people are very aware of the soundworld of "classical music" , being able to identify a bit of Beethoven might be useful in a quiz but I would rather my children were curious about ALL the sounds of the world.

[french frank]

No it's not useless at all
if you encourage people to be curious about what things sound like then they will be open to explore all kinds of repertoire both in music and other forms of sonic art. If you decide that somehow you need to get people to like Mahler "because it's great music because I say it is" , then you will fail to get people to connect with what is for many of us wonderful music.

It seems to me, then, that what you're saying is that the particular area of music which interests you is the best route to get them interested in the classical repertoire. (I'm not totally convinced that you think it 'matters' whether they develop an interest in such music).

I take the view that if you want to acquaint children with Shakespeare, you study Shakespeare with them. It's a skilled job doing that without putting them off for life, but it can be done (a 10-year-old cousin played the part of Juliet in R&J last term: I doubt it was all Shakespeare's words, but it was a substantial part to learn and she was elated at having been chosen to do it).
You say: 'Mahler "because it's great music because I say it is" ' - but those are your words. That isn't your view: why do you assume every teacher introducing children to classical music thinks like that? Some may - but that's life. Children are lucky or unlucky with their teachers, and can be put off French or Maths just as easily as they can be put off Shakespeare or Bach. The teacher must choose the right material(s) for the right moment in the children's lives.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I think some of the "problem" is that people get this "impression" without knowing what really happens.
which is not to say that everything is wonderful , far from it.

I do know what happens. It isn't just an impression. I've been a teacher for 39+ years.

[MrGongGong]

It seems to me, then, that what you're saying is that the particular area of music which interests you is the best route to get them interested in the classical repertoire.

Not at all
I was just pointing out that there is little awareness of listening
what part of Sonic Awareness excludes "classical music" ?


the "particular area of music which interests" me is SOUND
so that includes Elgar (yes really ) as well as the more esoteric things I happen to enjoy

to encourage people to appreciate a wider range of musics one needs to get the context right (sorry !)
when I took a group of teenagers who were mostly into Grime and Hip Hop to watch Gurgiev rehearse with the LSO they were mesmerised , when their teacher played them the same music on a CD in the classroom they were bored out of their brains.

I'm not totally convinced that you think it 'matters' whether they develop an interest in such music

Indeed , i'm not sure that it does "matter" , the music will survive without them.
What does "matter" IMV is that people are able to listen with open ears.

[MrGongGong]

I do know what happens. It isn't just an impression. I've been a teacher for 39+ years.

i wasn't referring to your comments

[Serial_Apologist]

Not at all
I was just pointing out that there is little awareness of listening
what part of Sonic Awareness excludes "classical music" ?


the "particular area of music which interests" me is SOUND
so that includes Elgar (yes really ) as well as the more esoteric things I happen to enjoy

to encourage people to appreciate a wider range of musics one needs to get the context right (sorry !)
when I took a group of teenagers who were mostly into Grime and Hip Hop to watch Gurgiev rehearse with the LSO they were mesmerised , when their teacher played them the same music on a CD in the classroom they were bored out of their brains.


Indeed , i'm not sure that it does "matter" , the music will survive without them.
What does "matter" IMV is that people are able to listen with open ears.

I detect a number of counterposing cultural agendas here.

I love jazz, reggae, blues, Tibetan Buddhist ceremonial music; but, apart from jazz, which has sufficient connections with the musical culture I was brought up in for me to identify with, musical forms other than classical don't resonate in the same multilevelled ways, e.g. intellectually, emotionally, physically. Some other kinds of response connected with the cultures non-classical and non-jazz musics originate from are implicitly more appropriate than others, but their identificatory associations often refer to belief systems no less loaded than mine in identifying with jazz/classical music.

I can see GG's point about sounds being gateways into all kinds of music, but I'm not sure I can go completely down that particular road with him - the way I see Cage's music's invitational pull is to the opening of the senses in general, as opposed to musics in general - there's too much water (metaphor for enrichment) under the bridge, too large a baby to throw out with that particular bathwater. Maybe his will be the only way "in", one day when the classical music tradition has become so downgraded in education as no longer indentifiable with an historical course of events from as far back as researchers have been able to go (Byzantium?) to the scientific age of reason, encompassed with varying degrees of critical validation by people who've spent a lot of time investigating its language as well as acoustic properties. Then it will have become just my music and its associated historical baggage versus yours.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

i wasn't referring to your comments

I realise that, but surely this isn't a private conversation.

[johnb]

In my experience young people are very aware of the soundworld of "classical music" , being able to identify a bit of Beethoven might be useful in a quiz but I would rather my children were curious about ALL the sounds of the world.

I respect your contributions to this MB but, I'm sorry to say, saying that young people are aware of the "soundworld" of classical music is one of the most meaningless statements I have ever heard.

Everyone is aware of the "soundworld" through films, TV etc but being aware of how (some) classical music sounds is like saying, in the context of art, that young people know what pictures look like. It is a silly comment.