The Unanswerable Question

[Guest]

..when does music stop being "experimental" and simply become rubbish? I have pondered the Emperors new clothes when listening to Late Junction - one recent example was a Lol Coxhill piece which consisted of a number of uncoached children chanting the words to "I am the Walrus"... and it was fairly certain that if the piece did not have the name Lol Coxhill under it, it would have been nothing more than a remedial drama class at an inner city primary school.
I have some thoughts on this but wondered whether the dividing line is consistent in the minds of other listeners too. I like to think I am quite liberal in taste but some things are just beyond my ability to appreciate!

[MrGongGong]

Context...................... (is the "answer" to the question if there is one ?)

[Bryn]

When was the item broadcast? Is it still available via the iPlayer?

[Serial_Apologist]

When was the item broadcast? Is it still available via the iPlayer?

Dunno when, but I'm sure it would have been off "Ear of the beholder".

[Bryn]

Ah, I guess it would be this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG4xdjaZHu4

What is there not to like about it?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

... i think the kids have it ....

[Domeyhead]

Ah, I guess it would be this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG4xdjaZHu4

What is there not to like about it?

If it's your own kids I think it might sound sweet enough, though I suspect, with some awkward glances among the parents. Had I put a similar recording of my kids on Youtube it would not receive any adulation and certainly not be played on Late Junction.
So does it become good simply because of who recorded it? Or because he thought it worthy of recording? Or, as I postulated, is it actually not good at all, and is in fact just a piece of pretentious drivel from someone so used to the idea of being on the edge that he can no longer judge for himself? It is an unanswerable question but that is what fora are for :-)

[MrGongGong]

I think you have to start by deciding (for yourself) a few things

such as

What do I mean by "good" ?
What do I think music is "for" ?

are you equating taste with quality ?

and

If Boulez was so good, why isn't he on X Factor ?

In my world , I find that it's often the context that makes something interesting to experience ...........

(i'm sure we've been here before ? I go here frequently with music students ......... all down to the Dahlhaus for a curry afterwards )

[MrGongGong]

and ............... ?

(bump)

[Domeyhead]

Well I now realise that far from being liberal minded I am actually the most reactionary Radio 3 listener! But nonetheless I will lean against the mantlepiece, remove the pipe from my mouth and jab at you with the stem for emphasis while I talk in my best Kenneth More accent. "Now look here. GongGong, this context thing......."
It strikes me that the narrower and more reatricted and limited the circumstances in which the music may be enjoyed then the lower the "enjoyment potential" of the music. So should all music be a pleasure to listen to? I'm getting into a minefield here - I'm sure a pavane or a requiem are not meant to be a "pleasure" so perhaps instead it is the music's ability to conjure an emotion in the listener,
On that score I suppose you might say Lol Coxhill's piece invoked the emotions of speechless incandescent rage which would qualify it as a roaring success, so should we further qualify the definition as "an emotion requiring introspection?"
Maybe it's actually quite simple for all of us, even the true liberals among us :-
WOuld you listen to it twice?

[Paul Sherratt]

>>>>>> WoUld you listen to it twice?


Oh yes.

[MrGongGong]

TO answer your last question

yes , I have listened to it several times, actually I only heard it for the first time a few weeks ago when it was played to me by a friend (who knew Lol) as an example of something unexpected

but the other question is

Why does it bring out "speechless incandescent rage" ??

why do people think that ALL music should be a "pleasure " to listen to ?

a cursory search of the internet will show that "pleasure" can take many forms

[teamsaint]

Because the R3 forum is the most rarified musical activity that I take part in, (!!) I sometimes wonder what else is out there in the world of musical thinking , criticism and analysis.

When I studied English at degree level, actual enjoyment of literature was frequently a long way down the list of priorities, most especially for academics. They way in which language was experienced, how it worked, and most especially the endless different ways in which the experience of literature could be interpreted seemed to be the most important preoccupations of those involved. It was a useful experience, but I guess one that is not that easily transferred to, say music, for the amateur.
Nonetheless, as MrGG rightly points out, context, and recognising the context are vital. As somebody who hasn't "studied" music beyond O level, it often seems to me that music lags a long way behind other areas of the Arts and academic study.....no doubt I am wrong, perhaps the disconnect between the university educated and the rest of us is just greater in music than elsewhere....perhaps not .
To be fair, though, structuralist or post Structuralist literary criticism never really caught on as a popular pastime.

As a PS, there is an interesting, and well described lesson in context in a David Lodge book .The various people are at an Art Exhibition, where one of the exhibits is a blank piece of photocopy paper in a frame. The question, which is of course the whole point, is whether this is a piece of art. Not a revolutionary thought , but in a popular novel it raises the question well. And of course , regardless of opinion, only the context gives it any meaning.Presumably sound is much the same.
Sorry about the ramble. I think I need to go on a course. Don't know of what though !!

Edit: going back to the OP, in terms of the more ambitious and edgy pop and rock acts....I would suggest that the A sides are experimental, and the B sides are rubbish !

[teamsaint]

>>>>>> WoUld you listen to it twice?


Oh yes.

I once read the opinion expressed that the second time you hear a piece of music, it is nostalgia !

[Roslynmuse]

The reference to David Lodge reminded me of something that happened more than thirty years ago.

When I was at school, a trip was arranged to visit the Royal Academy summer art exhibition. We were fifteen, high-spirited boys from a Merseyside comprehensive...

An empty wine glass was discovered in one of the exhibition spaces. A peach stone (recently divested of its fruity covering) was casually dropped in the glass, and the whole ensemble placed on a convenient pedestal.

There were several people (unconnected with our group) holding forth on its artistic merits next time we came into the room.