Woodwind instruments

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

As a woodwind player, I really cannot stand the practice of many people (most of whom should know better) as referring to “wind and brass”. Surely “wind” refers to any kind of aerophone, including brass, pipe organ, harmonica, shofars and all of the other blown instruments throughout the world.

Having said that, the term “woodwind” is very difficult to define. There are three quite different methods of sound production: free air reed, single reed and double reed. Yet they are classed as a single family. A clarinet and a flute are about as closely related as a cat and a dog.

[David-G]

Yes, but surely the sounds of the different woodwind instruments complement each other in such a way that they form a coherent group. Of course, with contrasts within the group. But woodwind and brass are more of a contrast.

[Tapiola]

Yes, but surely the sounds of the different woodwind instruments complement each other in such a way that they form a coherent group. Of course, with contrasts within the group. But woodwind and brass are more of a contrast.

David, you've just got me thinking about very deliberate non-blendings of the wind families in orchestral contexts (e.g. Mussorgsky, or Stravinsky's Petrushka) where the sub-families within wind instruments are purposefully kept "clean" and distinct", if you like.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes, but surely the sounds of the different woodwind instruments complement each other in such a way that they form a coherent group. Of course, with contrasts within the group. But woodwind and brass are more of a contrast.

Except that a woodwind quintet consists of: flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon & er... French horn.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes, but surely the sounds of the different woodwind instruments complement each other in such a way that they form a coherent group. Of course, with contrasts within the group. But woodwind and brass are more of a contrast.

Except that a woodwind quintet consists of: flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon & er... French horn.

[Tony Halstead]

Exactly so, and that is why the 'Woodwind Quintet' ( USA-speak) is such an unsatisfactory medium, as there is little chance of a true blend of tone apart from those passages scored for the lower three instruments.('Wind Quintet' is a more accurate name, surely?)
Even the most devoted wind 5tet enthusiasts - players and listeners alike, must reflect on the fact that not one single great 19thC composer wrote a wind 5tet. One can only assume that e.g. Brahms, Dvorak, Schumann, Bruckner et al simply didn't have access to wind players of enough technical/ musical accomplishment to inspire those composers. Maybe the chief culprit was the horn, whose mostly very conservative players were slow to give up the old valveless hand-horn and its limitations for chromatic music. It was only when the valve horn was finally accepted by all horn players from about the 1880s onward that composers could write horn parts of similar chromatic fluidity to woodwind parts. And even then, no truly memorable wind 5tets emerged until the 20thC. These 'memorable' works include Hindemith's 'Kleine Kammermusik', Nielsen's 5tet, Schoenberg's 5tet, Barber's 'Summer Music', and there is a delightful 2-movement 5tet by Elliott Carter dating from his 'pre-serial' period. Although not a quintet as such, perhaps the most inspired work of the 20thC for 'mixed wind' is Janáček's sextet 'Mladi' ( 'Youth') which is scored for wind quintet plus bass clarinet.

[MrGongGong]

Surely the "most inspired" is by Ligeti ?

(either set )

[Tony Halstead]

Yes maybe you are right, the LIgeti '10 pieces' of course, NOT the 6 Bagatelles, which are IMHO only '10% inspired' compared to either the 10 pieces or the Janáček.

[Tapiola]

Yes maybe you are right, the LIgeti '10 pieces' of course, NOT the 6 Bagatelles, which are IMHO only '10% inspired' compared to either the 10 pieces or the Janáček.

I tend to agree, waldhorn - the Bagatelles being rehashes to a certain extent of the piano Musica Ricercata - though they are still great pieces. The Janacek is wonderful.

[Tony Halstead]

Except that a woodwind quintet consists of: flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon & er... French horn.

Picking up on the exactitude of your terminology gives rise to another thought about wind quintets: if only, IF ONLY horn players today would indeed play a FRENCH HORN, 'at a stroke' most of the notorious problems of 'balance' in a wind 5tet would be solved or at least ameliorated!
These days, no horn players play a 'French' horn.
They play German, American, English, Japanese, Czech and even Chinese horns, none of these instruments having the light, slender, elegant, pure tone of the old French horn.
When we listen to, and marvel at the recordings of Dennis Brain ( and his father Aubrey Brain) what we hear is not only the phenomenal virtuosity and sheer musicality of the player(s), but also their French or French-style horns. Even when Dennis switched to a German-made horn in the early 1950s he had a French-style narrow-bore bell adapted and fitted to the German horn.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The English horn is German too.

[Tony Halstead]

I meant 'a horn manufactured in Germany' of course, sorry for the confusion!
If I had been referring to that lower-pitched type of oboe I would have used the name 'Cor Anglais' rather than the USA-speak 'English Horn'.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Solo Horn with solo (wood)wind instruments never sounds a "comfortable" ensemble to me (better suited for polyphony than "rich" chordal writing, which might explain why there isn't a decent W5tet from the Romantic generations). Far better IMO are the sextet and octet "Harmonie" serenades of Mozart (2 each of Oboes, Bassoons and Horns, with Clarinets in the octets)