premiers and new commissions

[AjAjAjH]

I have listened to a number of new commissions, world and european premieres, and first performances. I wonder how many of them, when they have done the rounds, are ever heard again. I have to confess that most them, I wouldn't buy tickets for again.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There's probably quite a lot that never resurface. 'Twas ever thus, surely?

[jayne lee wilson]

Isn't that just the problem, and not just with premieres but with much new and unfamiliar music? Often you need to hear it again to get into it at all... I remember being utterly puzzled by Roussel's orchestral music when I first tried it; I gave up, only returning to it after Cowan recommended the Cluytens' 3&4. Now I would call him one of my favourites...
This has happened to me a lot.

When I heard Knussen's 3rd Symphony on Saturday, I picked up the Stravinskian influence, the broad outlines, not much else.
Struggling to find words to describe it, I listened to it via iPlayer 3 times on Sunday, the last time just because I was so compelled by the music itself, my increasing familiarity was drawing me into its beauty, and how it all fitted together.

It's easy to forget how recorded music has given us the chance to know and (doubtless still imperfectly) understand many orchestral masterpieces from all eras. But with recent and contemporary composition, that has remained rare. There's usually just one recording, often soon deleted. A concert premiere should be followed by other performances, but almost always isn't.

So it needn't be the music's fault. Just a random choice - I see on my shelves an nmc disc of John Buller's Proenca - dramatic piece which had a great impact on me at its Proms (?) premiere. Has it ever been revived since?

[heliocentric]

It's an obvious thing to say but every piece of music in (and outside) the repertoire had a first performance at some point.

PS shouldn't this thread be in "Talking about Music"?

[french frank]

PS shouldn't this thread be in "Talking about Music"?

Yes - moved.

[Pabmusic]

These were all premiered by Boult over a 30-year period. I've certainly not heard any of them, or come across recordings or references to performances. Yet some of these are (presumably) substantial pieces, and most were (again, presumably) commissioned. The same must be true of many premieres. Programming policy of the time will account for some of the disappearances, but there must be some enjoyable pieces here:

1934 R. O. Morris - Symphony in D
1936 Mary Callander - Suite
1939 Cyril Rootham - Symphony 2
1941 Hubert Clifford - Five English Nursery Dances
1942 Eric Chisholm - The Adventures of Babar
1942 Alec Rowley - Three Idylls for Piano & Orchestra
1942 Thomas Dunhill - Tryptich for Viola & Orchestra
1942 Armstrong Gibbs - Dance Suite
1943 Phyllis Tate - Elegiac March
1947 Humphrey Searle - Piano Concerto
1951 Thomas Wood - The Rainbow
1952 Franz Reizenstein - Voices of the Night
1953 Iain Hamilton - Symphony 2
1953 Peter Racine Fricker - Viola Concerto
1954 Franz Reizenstein - Overture ‘Cyrano de Bergerac’
1954 Peter Racine Fricker - Piano Concerto
1955 Cedric Thorpe Davie - Diversions on a Tune by Dr. Arne
1960 Matyas Seiber - Dance Suite
1961 Priaulx Rainier - Dance Concerto, Palaphala
1961 John Mayer - Chamber Symphony
1962 Joseph Horovitz - Fantasia on a Theme of Couperin
1962 William Wordsworth - Symphony 5
1964 Derek Bourgeois - Symphony
1965 Don Banks - Divisions for Orchestra
1967 Alun Hoddinott - Severn Bridge Variations

[heliocentric]

Thanks FF.

And thanks Pabmusic for that reminder. There seems to be a widespread assumption that the new works of let's say an "avant-garde" character are the ones which are swiftly forgotten after their first performance, but actually most new works of any kind tend to suffer that fate. There's too much music around for it all to be played all the time, even music which considerable numbers of people believe is worth that kind of attention. The "classical" music institutions are built around the assumption of a repertoire which stays approximately the same size, while actually it keeps growing, and at the same time encompasses a much wider geographical and temporal range than it used to. Luckily there are recordings - and indeed there are many thousands of hours of recordings of "neglected music" in the BBC archives which could usefully see the light of day some time.

[MrGongGong]

One of the things that I think all composers need to decide
is whether they are making music that is intended to exist without their personal involvement
we tend to value highly the kinds of musicking that result in "works" and often (and sometimes erroneously IMV) ascribe value onto the longevity of a particular work or composer
the
"Test of time" as some like to call it

for some of us
the work is intrinsically tied up with a very specific event, group of people or situation ....... some works (Bach's music for example) can happily sit in many contexts
BUT
it's a mistake IMV to equate this with value (even though Bach's music is wonderful)

[heliocentric]

Bach is an interesting example I think, because for most of his life he wouldn't have had time to ponder whether his music was supposed to "stand the test of time", and he probably wouldn't even have recognised that concept in any case, since nothing that had happened in European music history up until his time would have given him the impression that a musical composition could "last" more than a few decades, at least without having to be rewritten to take account of new circumstances, and in that time a competent musician should be able to write something new anyway. The term "classical music" first occurred in the mid-1830s I believe.

[french frank]

for some of us
the work is intrinsically tied up with a very specific event, group of people or situation

How does that, for example, differ from - or resemble - a published newspaper (intended for a day but superseded by tomorrow's paper) compared with a published novel?

[MrGongGong]

How does that, for example, differ from - or resemble - a published newspaper (intended for a day but superseded by tomorrow's paper) compared with a published novel?

It sometimes does resemble a newspaper
however musical works are often crafted with the amount of work that one might put into a novel even though they might only happen once !

I still haven't read this one yet

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Delete-Virtue-Forgetting-Digital-Age/dp/0691138613

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I still haven't read this one yet

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Delete-Virtu.../dp/0691138613

You might have done.

[MrGongGong]

You might have done.

[Boilk]

Isn't that just the problem, and not just with premieres but with much new and unfamiliar music?

There is an ever-growing universe of 'classical' music coming into existence with no corresponding expansion in the number of ensembles, orchestras, conductors, classical radio stations, venues and perhaps even liseners to perform and hear it. With independent classical labels in decline for some time too, thankfully there are increasingly composer's own websites, YouTube-like sites and some online radio sites - which is the 'ghetto' that contemporary classical music seems to be increasingly confined to.

When I heard Knussen's 3rd Symphony on Saturday, I picked up the Stravinskian influence, the broad outlines, not much else.
Struggling to find words to describe it, I listened to it via iPlayer 3 times on Sunday, the last time just because I was so compelled by the music itself, my increasing familiarity was drawing me into its beauty, and how it all fitted together.

Strongly recommend the Tilson-Thomas/London Sinfonietta recording of No.3 (with No.2) on NMC (originally on Unicorn)

[jayne lee wilson]

There is an ever-growing universe of 'classical' music coming into existence with no corresponding expansion in the number of ensembles, orchestras, conductors, classical radio stations, venues and perhaps even liseners to perform and hear it. With independent classical labels in decline for some time too, thankfully there are increasingly composer's own websites, YouTube-like sites and some online radio sites - which is the 'ghetto' that contemporary classical music seems to be increasingly confined to.


Strongly recommend the Tilson-Thomas/London Sinfonietta recording of No.3 (with No.2) on NMC (originally on Unicorn)

The Knussen arrived today, the original issue too! But yes, it is also re-released on NMC.