PC schedules

[Don Petter]

I agree with GG in his #9:

It's quite easy not to be offensive
you just don't say or write things that give offence

So to refer to someone as a golliwog, in speech or writing, might well be offensive, but to refer to Debussy's piece by its original title in a programme should give offence to no-one except those who go out of their way looking for an imaginary one.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And there are also cases not related to titles alone. What about Twain's Huckleberry Finn, which is full of references to "nigger" - should this be updated on the grounds that such references can give offence? In attempting to avoid all possibility of giving offence we can come close to bowdlerism.

But, unlike Conrad's work (or Agatha Christie's, for that matter) "nigger" isn't in the title; it's not on public display (for a racist kid to taunt a black kid with, for example). To get to the "references", you have to read the book. Just like Of Mice & Men, where it becomes clear that the only chance of Lennie & Curley's dreams of being their own bosses lies with the help of the only black character in the book. (Nevertheless, I once marked a GCSE Exam answer which ended "This is a horrible book full of horrible words like 'Nigger', and I'm never going to read it again!")

Bowdlerizing a text is self-defeating, as it draws even greater attention to the original than if it had been left unadulterated. But titles of pieces of Music are a different matter - especially as so many of them don't originate with the composer anyway - and the American Quartet and the Teddy Bear's Cakewalk are no less effective as pieces of Music as the Nigger or the Golliwog. For "Political Correctness" in this case, just read "courtesy" - or even simply "Good Manners".

[Dave2002]

don petter

I'm not sure that you and Mr GG are in agreement. It seems that for some people certain words and images are absolutely offensive, whereas others take into account the context in which they are used. Some seem to want to pass the responsibility - and hence any offence caused - for the interpretation back to the originator, whereas others would accept that many listeners, readers, viewers would take the meaning of what was said or shown in context.

[amateur51]

But, unlike Conrad's work (or Agatha Christie's, for that matter) "nigger" isn't in the title; it's not on public display (for a racist kid to taunt a black kid with, for example). To get to the "references", you have to read the book. Just like Of Mice & Men, where it becomes clear that the only chance of Lennie & Curley's dreams of being their own bosses lies with the help of the only black character in the book. (Nevertheless, I once marked a GCSE Exam answer which ended "This is a horrible book full of horrible words like 'Nigger', and I'm never going to read it again!")

Bowdlerizing a text is self-defeating, as it draws even greater attention to the original than if it had been left unadulterated. But titles of pieces of Music are a different matter - especially as so many of them don't originate with the composer anyway - and the American Quartet and the Teddy Bear's Cakewalk are no less effective as pieces of Music as the Nigger or the Golliwog. For "Political Correctness" in this case, just read "courtesy" - or even simply "Good Manners".

Nicely put, ferney

A well-known social commentator addressing the problematic use of the word 'paki' pointed out that it is a word that it is only ever used accompanied by 'a curled lip' and she's right

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, it should be given its proper name, Le Petit Nègre. That's yer actual French!

No; Le Petite negre is another ('tho' very similar) piece:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYGMHZeIoxw

The English title of Children's Corner and the names of its composite pieces was Debussy's own decision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMrdhgWR9Zk

[VodkaDilc]

No; Le Petite negre is another ('tho' very similar) piece:
]

Though much easier. I've often found it a useful first step for young pianists tackling Debussy. (See previous message 7)

[vinteuil]

But, unlike Conrad's work (or Agatha Christie's, for that matter) "nigger" isn't in the title".

I see from wikipedia that Conrad's novel when first published in the US was given a different title - "The Children of the Sea".

However - this was not because the n-word was deemed offensive (in 1897) - but because the American publishers didn't think a book about a black man would sell...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nig...he_'Narcissus''

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

(See previous message 7)

Oops! Quite so, voddy; don't know how I missed that! (Hope it didn't cause any offense! )

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I see from wikipedia that Conrad's novel when first published in the US was given a different title - "The Children of the Sea".
However - this was not because the n-word was deemed offensive (in 1897) - but because the American publishers didn't think a book about a black man would sell...'

[jean]

It seems that for some people certain words and images are absolutely offensive, whereas others take into account the context in which they are used.

But context is not fixed.

The context within which a black person hears the word 'nigger', or sees the image of a golliwog, is never going to be the same as that within which a white person experiences them.

[Dave2002]

But context is not fixed.

The context within which a black person hears the word 'nigger', or sees the image of a golliwog, is never going to be the same as that within which a white person experiences them.

Possibly reasonable point, though in the case of Debussy I'd submit that he is not in a position to change things now, and that many people would accept that he lived in a different place and time, and that he was (hopefully) not being derogatory.

We can also take this to different levels - in one way everyone is in a different context, but then the problem of communication becomes unmanageable if we try to be sensitive to everyone for all time.

[amateur51]

But context is not fixed.

The context within which a black person hears the word 'nigger', or sees the image of a golliwog, is never going to be the same as that within which a white person experiences them.

Added to all the variables for Black person and white person too, jean

I think I've mentioned this before - in writing committee papers I always used a capital B for Black when I was referring to Black people, as a clarifier. One committee member picked me up on it & asked why we only capitalise Black to which I for once had the speed of thought to respond "well there's always God and the Queen too". and as the committee had associations with both, that was felt to be an adequate response

[Frances_iom]

interesting ref from Torygraph - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ed...g-to-the-left/

[amateur51]

For "Political Correctness" in this case, just read "courtesy" - or even simply "Good Manners".

I remember reading that Peter Hitchens would agree with this, ferney

Whichever way you look at it, that's deuced odd, but there you go

[vinteuil]

interesting ref from Torygraph - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ed...g-to-the-left/

.... I think this might also be relevant to the "George Orwell Statue" thread on Platform 3 ?