PC schedules

[MrGongGong]

I don't think it's "blanking out" history at all, any more than the renaming of streets to Grape Lanes, the history of it is fairly clear and there for everyone to find out about. If I was giving a performance of this piece (though given my piano playing I doubt many would turn up !) I would avoid the name as it would instantly make the whole musical experience about THAT and not about the music.
the problem with much of this stuff is that often those who get the most irate about it as "PC gorrrrne maaaaad" are seeking to be gratuitously offensive as they like (which ISN'T what I think Dave was doing )..............

[Bryn]

I was not intending to give offence. I just find that revising texts may change "history" as we know it. At the time Debussy's piece was written possibly not everyone was aware of all the connotations, though the fact that the title includes the term "cakewalk" may suggest that some at least had more awareness. Blanking out history does not seem to me an altogether respectable way to do things, and there have been many situations where history and "facts" have been rewritten later. It is said that this is usually by the victors.

And let us not forget that the cakewalk was a form of dance belonging to the Afro-American slaves, and was a parody of gentile white folk's prancing. However, the origins of the golligogg character are from quite the other side of the slave/slavemaster divide.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I don't think it is "blanking out history", Dave: does anybody now call Dvorak's Op 96 The Nigger? Dvorak meant no offense (the opposite, in fact) and used a term that, to him, was just a derivative of nigre, meaning "black". To call the work The American nowadays isn't "blanking out" the original subtitle: everybody knows this (or can easily find it out). But it does mean that CD covers and concert posters avoid using a word that is deeply offensive and which is only used by those who wish to offend. (Well, apart from subvertive irony on the part of some Black Rap artists.)

So it is with the Cake Walk - the original title is well-known and/or easily available; it was not consciously chosen by the composer to demean anyone, but "Golliwog" nowadays is recognised as a representation of a stereotype intended to demean a racial group. That many of us owned such toys, or collected the marmelade broaches, as children shows that the intention failed. But I don't think it's "political correctness gone mad" to suggest that there's no need to insist on using the word (with all its negative connotations) purely to maintain the composer's original title.

[Pabmusic]

Many works have their names changed and the names of the artists changed so as not to offend...
Should we change all the Grape Lanes back ?

Some things just get missed (at least by most people):

MALVOLIO

(picking up the letter) By my life, this is my lady’s hand; these be her very C’s, her U’s and her T’s and thus makes she her great P’s...

[Twelfth Night, Act 2]

[vinteuil]

I don't think it is "blanking out history", Dave: does anybody now call Dvorak's Op 96 The Nigger? Dvorak meant no offense (the opposite, in fact) and used a term that, to him, was just a derivative of nigre, meaning "black". To call the work The American nowadays isn't "blanking out" the original subtitle: everybody knows this (or can easily find it out). But it does mean that CD covers and concert posters avoid using a word that is deeply offensive and which is only used by those who wish to offend. (Well, apart from subvertive irony on the part of some Black Rap artists.)

.

... tho' there are more difficult cases. We ca'n't really change the title of Conrad's novel "The Nigger of the Narcissus" ; I don't know whether the title means that the book is less read than his other comparable novels - I can imagine it wd be impossible for Americans to countenance a film being made of it with that title.

[vinteuil]

. We ca'n't really change the title of Conrad's novel "The Nigger of the Narcissus" .

... tho' I see a particularly crass attempt has been made -

https://www.amazon.com/N-word-Narcissus-Joseph-Conrad/dp/9076660115

[aeolium]

And there are also cases not related to titles alone. What about Twain's Huckleberry Finn, which is full of references to "nigger" - should this be updated on the grounds that such references can give offence? In attempting to avoid all possibility of giving offence we can come close to bowdlerism.

[Dave2002]

I didn't know about Dvorak's Op 96. Seems a justified adaptation - though maybe loses some detail. Perhaps "American quartet - based on tunes from American Slaves" would be more accurate and informative. It's too simple to assume that everyone will know this - many won't. **

For the Debussy piece if we can accept that the intended audience contained at least one 3 year old girl, then perhaps "Doll's cakewalk" would be a better title". I hope that is in the spirit which Debussy intended. If he was being more provocative, then do we need to add him to the list of suspect composers, such as Wagner?

Racism detectors can go too far. One US paper once had a headline something like "XYZ moves into the African American" - in the business section - Fresno Bee, circa 1990- 1992

**wikipedia currently has this, which could be interpreted differently - "Dvořák wrote that the quartet - one of the most popular in the chamber music repertoire - is influenced by American folk music."

[MrGongGong]

I think (as i alluded to before) that if one is making an artwork then it's important to recognise what the audience would read into a particular part. So , for example, when I devise music with students I always try to get them to be aware of how certain rhythms will elicit particular associations in the minds of the audience, the classic example is the rhythm that "means football"





the same is true with words

which means that if the word in question was FROG then this would be the result

This species is a mid-sized true frog. Adult green frogs range from 5–10 cm (2.0–3.9 in) in body length (snout to vent, excluding the hindlegs). The typical body weight of this species is from 28 to 85 g (0.99 to 3.0 oz).[5][6] Males have a tympanum twice the diameter of the eye and a bright yellow throat. Female tympanum diameter is about the same as that of the eye. Dorsolateral ridges, prominent, seam-like skin folds that run down the sides of the back, distinguish the green frog from the bullfrog, which entirely lacks them.

[french frank]

The interesting point is the way the child's toy which was neither intended to be offensive nor thought of as offensive (and in my case thought of as some sort of mythical animal) has come to be so. Yet I find the Barbie doll a grotesquely offensive representation of women (in looking for an image I actually found myself on a site which proclaimed itself a 'porn' website).

Who does and who doesn't find it offensive?

[salymap]

We had several children from a local authority home in our infants' school. One pretty black girl with short fuzzy hair danced the 'Trepak' ?? from the Tchaik Nutcracker ballet which we performed on grass to ancient records.

She was the star of the show and very popular with our class and was known always as G...y Grobb. I think she went on to University and wonder if she ever learned to 'take offence' at the name. I don't think so.

[Boilk]

...In attempting to avoid all possibility of giving offence ...

Should we even make the attempt? In some cases we may find ourselves exhibiting servile deference to the ignorant and the thin-skinned.

A common problem is that what is often not sent as offence, is unfortunately received as that or, more accurately, perceived as such at the receipt point because of the PC brigade.

When an anthropoligast uses the word 'negro', sometimes otherwise intelligent people jump up and down with claims that the word is offensive. Should we be allowing such reactions to limit our language/vocabulary from being used in its proper context? I work with some people who effectively hear "nigger" when the word "negro" is broadcast or appears in print, which shouldn't be the case (they might be surprised to learn that Martin Luther King chose the word to identify his race in the 'I Have a Dream' speech). How long before this word is expunged even from anthropological texts?

[Dave2002]

Mr GG re msg 24

I'm totally confused!

[jean]

We had several children from a local authority home in our infants' school. One pretty black girl with short fuzzy hair danced the 'Trepak' ?? from the Tchaik Nutcracker ballet which we performed on grass to ancient records.

She was the star of the show and very popular with our class and was known always as G...y Grobb. I think she went on to University and wonder if she ever learned to 'take offence' at the name. I don't think so.

Are you quite sure she didn't find it upsetting even then?

[MrGongGong]

Mr GG re msg 24

I'm totally confused!

If you use a word (or musical object) that has a reference that has changed over time it will acquire a disproportionate significance. If you write a piece of music with the rhythmic phrase in my message 24 your audience will think it's about football, there's nothing you can do about that. If you have a piece (like the Debussy) that contains a word that has come to be offensive then people will take offence as that's what it has come to mean even if it wasn't the original intention. If your work IS about that, and it's response then it's what you intend BUT (as in the FROG example) if you intend something else (as i'm sure Debussy did) then the part that has come to mean something different will have unintended significance..........

(not very well put I know but does that make sense ?)