What is a symphony?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... ah, the "real world".

I have indeed heard tell of that wondrous place...

I went there once; it was Early Closing Day.

[teamsaint]

I went there once; it was Early Closing Day.

they still have that in melksham.
though, for an outsider, its quite hard to tell.

edit, as for a symphony, well its a concerto with the solo instrument removed and replaced by an extra movement. i think that is correct, anyway.

[vinteuil]

they still have that in melksham.
though, for an outsider, its quite hard to tell.

... ayyy, watchit!! - whaddya know about Melksham??

If you need to be confidential, by all means send a private mail...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Doesn't it depend when you're talking about? A bit like asking "What is an orchestra"?

In the 18th Century, a Symphony was an orchestral piece, usually in three or four movements (occasionally just one; never [AFAIK] two) all in the same or a closely related key. It was a celebration of Equal Temperament and increasingly exploited the possibilities for modulation that such tunings facilitated. So, a movement would begin in one key, move to another and the drama of the work was the outcome of this change and the "journey" back to the home key. As long-term and frequent key changes in a work was a new experience, stabilty had to be achieved both by audible alterations to fragments and cells from themes heard at the start of the work, and by an extended restatement of the principal themes entirely in the home key. As the century progressed, key contrasts moved further and further away from the home tonality, which meant that the lengths of movements became longer and more "dramatic".

In the 19th Century, "contrast between tonal areas" became "conflict between different psychological states". Seriousness of purpose in Music was chiefly associated with The Symphony, and light-hearted works were called (often with what seems to me to be an element of embarrassment) "Sinfoniettas", and Haydn's glorious examples fell from favour or were patronizingly looked down upon. A "real" Symphony had to have gravitas; an expression of struggle against dark psychological forces, and the triumph of The Good

At the start of the 20th Century, rather than an expression and exploration of tonal regions, The Symphony was a battleground in which a triumphant - or a defeated - Tonality had to be reached at the end of a piece, like Ulysses finally reaching Ithaca. Chromatic saturation of diatonic Tonality led some composers (following Mahler) to explore non-Tonal means of expression and others (following Sibelius) to regenerate Modal materials (or work in new artificial Modes that could only be derived from the Equal Tempered chromatic scale). What both sets of composers shared was a devotion to Development of material, and the manipulation of their material towards a final "goal".

After the First World War, many artists became suspicious of grandiose, subjective "expression", and chose either to reject the genre completely, or to restore a Haydnesque element of playful irony to it. Others preferred to maintain some aspects of the pre-War Symphonic ideal of Development, conflict and resolution. One such composer was Robert Simpson, whose blinkered vision of what a Symphony should be like (Tonal, cellular, "unipulsular") informed his own magnificent works, and led him to powerful insights into the works of others - but also to imposing this vision onto the work of his contemporaries and ancestors. It is probably his introductions to the Pelican Symphony volumes that have caused more "positive uncertainty" about what a Symphony is in the UK since the mid-60s than anything else.

And so it is at the start of the 21st Century. Some composers seek a mediation with the Symphony's past and create orchestral works with grand gestures; others seek to usurp that past, and produce works that critics say aren't "really Symphonic" at all. And others who don't find anything in that tradition that they can use, preferring to invent/discover new means of expression better suited to what they have to communicate, just as the early Symphonists initially rejected the language of, say, the Renaissance motet.

[teamsaint]

... ayyy, watchit!! - whaddya know about Melksham??

If you need to be confidential, by all means send a private mail...

Oh , I think we can all be open in what we all know and think about the lovely West Wilts town , Vinny !!
How is that canal extension coming along , BTW ?!
I thought it would be an improvement..........

[vinteuil]

Oh , I think we can all be open in what we all know and think about the lovely West Wilts town , Vinny !!

... it was our nearest town when I was growing up.

I remember being depressed by - and agreeing with - Pevsner's decription in his Wiltshire -

"Of the small towns of Wiltshire, Melksham has least character and least enjoyable buildings... "

Fortunately I spent most of my waking hours chez nous, or in Devizes, Corsham, or Bath - all of which had far greater attractions than poor old depressing Melksham...

[teamsaint]

They even tried to help it seem less bad by putting it close to Westbury(where I lived for a long time) and Trowbridge, but to no avail !!
Its a work only place for me.....although seriously,I did think that extening the Wilts and Berks and some sensitive "waterside development " could only help the poor place..but apparently there was oppostion......beats me.
If they did that, and got a decent train service, the place would have half a chance !

Like you, spent my spare time getting out, in my case to the footy in Southampton, or the record shops in Bath. Heaven !

[french frank]

Doesn't it depend when you're talking about?

I think that was the point I was trying to make particularly in my point 1. in Msg #20: 1. 'The meaning varies, somewhat or significantly, depending on the era to which it applies.'

[french frank]

It's interesting that the earliest example in the OED of the word used in roughly the current modern sense*** is Charles Burney 1789, where he writes: "His [sc. J. C. Bach's] symphonies, quartets, and concertos for almost every species of instrument."


*** "An elaborate orchestral composition in three or more movements, originally developed from the operative overture (see sense 5a), similar in form to a sonata, but usually of grander dimensions and broader style."

Earlier examples of symphony refer to what I would think of as the sinfonia, the extended orchestral opening to an opera or choral work.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think that was the point I was trying to make particularly in my point 1. in Msg #20: 1. 'The meaning varies, somewhat or significantly, depending on the era to which it applies.'

I think so, too, frenchie, and your phrase must have lodged in my subconcious as I thought up my long answer. My apologies for not having referred to it.

[french frank]

I think so, too, frenchie,

So I got one right out of 5! Sounds like my usual success rate

[Serial_Apologist]

So I got one right out of 5! Sounds like my usual success rate

That would be the whole of a first movement, bar the coda!

[ahinton]

Some of us do.

But who are "us"? As I wrote earlier, there are indeed some people who do this kind of thing, but I don't think that they're in anything like a majority. One problem is that some people talk and write too much about music without suifficient prior consideration as to how good they might be at doing so and how much they might (or might not) draw in their potential or actual audience when they do; even composers (though hopefully and almost certainly not the present writer) have on occasion been somewhat guilty of this kind of thing.

[ahinton]

Which begs the questions

"When is a non-symphony really a symphony"?

When it's not called a symphony but nevertheless fulfils the criteria that a majority of people who care about such things might assume to fit the term, I imagine.

What is it about "that word" that makes it impossible for you to use it?

Oh, I don't know - all the historical baggage that accompanies it everywhere, I suppose - not that this is any kind of excuse, of course...

[QUOTE=ferneyhoughgeliebte;194125]What is it about your works that "might be thought to merit that title" that makes you feel they "might"?
I don't know; somehow, the words of that Michael Dobbs character so vividly portrayed years ago by the late lamented Iain Richardson - "some people might think that - I couldn't possibly comment" - somehow spring to what may be left of my mind...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

When it's not called a symphony but nevertheless fulfils the criteria that a majority of people who care about such things might assume to fit the term, I imagine.
Oh, I don't know - all the historical baggage that accompanies it everywhere, I suppose - not that this is any kind of excuse, of course...

Hmm: when does "criteria" become "historical baggage"? (Rhetorical question, and thank you for your responses to my nosey queries.)

the words of that Michael Dobbs character so vividly portrayed years ago by the late lamented Iain Richardson - "some people might think that - I couldn't possibly comment" - somehow spring to what may be left of my mind...

Bearing in mind what happened to someone who asked too many questions of Francis Urquhart, I think that I'd better stop at this point - and keep away from the roof of the House of Commons!