Extremely annoying pieces of classical music

[ahinton]

Bartok wouldn't have minded... and Walton, in the finale of his second symphony, used a 12-tone theme, not developed serially. There must be others - can't quite think who, folr the moment.

OK, then - so I withdraw the apology!

[Serial_Apologist]

OK, then - so I withdraw the apology!

[Nick Armstrong]

Bartok wouldn't have minded... and Walton, in the finale of his second symphony, used a 12-tone theme, not developed serially. There must be others - can't quite think who, folr the moment.

Shostakovich throws one into the first movement of his 15th for a giggle, I seem to remember.

[Pabmusic]

He certainly was! He wrote a wonderful 19 part motet "O bone Jesu", and a number of mass settings. Others from that era include David Peebles, Robert Johnson and William Kinloche. More recently, there was Thomas Erskine, 6th Earl of Kellie, who was born in 1732 - a Fifer like me - and from the 19th century Hamish MacCunn. Scotty has mentioned Macmillan, and could also have mentioned Thea Musgrave and Judith Weir, among others.

So there's a few. There were of course others, though possibly not as many as other countries have produced. On the other hand, Scots have been busy in many other walks of life inventing or discovering marmalade, bicycles, pneumatic tyres, tar macadam, television, telephones, radar, electromagnetic radiation, anaesthetics, penicillin and even founding the Bank of England.

Don't forget Sir Alexander Mackenzie, Director of the RAM, conductor and composer - he at least was an important figure in his day (if not exactly as a composer).

Having added to your list, I'm now going to subtract from it - the Scots didn't give us marmalade. Contrary to what is often said about it (and particularly the name of the delicious stuff - "Marie est malade" and all that) it's not Scottish. It was first imported from Portugal in the 15th century and was made of quinces and honey. It was highly taxed and a real luxury, and the name is from the Portuguese for quince - marmalada. Over time, other fruits were used, till we settled on citrus, mainly oranges, in the last 150 years. (I'll take off my anorak now.)

[scottycelt]

'Alistair Hinton was born in Scotland.'

Incredible ... me too!

[scottycelt]

- the Scots didn't give us marmalade.

Yes, they (generally the English) say that about nearly everything the Scots jealously regard as their own.

You know the sort of thing .. 'it was actually the Dutch who invented golf' ... 'kilts and bagpipes first came from the Middle East' ... 'William Wallace was really Welsh' ... 'Alexander Graham Bell was an American citizen' ... and, horror of horrors 'it was the Irish who first made whisky' ... all that sort of stuff.

Mary Queen of Scots (who, of course, wasn't really Scottish either) was said to have introduced a type of marmalade to Scotland from her native France, and the crafty locals then perfected the process to produce the delicious item that we know today.

That's the whole point. Unlike their southern neighbours, the Scots are not a naturally Euro-sceptic race, and loved to learn from their continental neighbours, and also travel the wider world to pick up good ideas from the natives to then set up proper business there or at home, whilst cunningly acquiring global intellectual property rights.

Easy!

[ahinton]

'Alistair Hinton was born in Scotland.'

Incredible ... me too!

Do you retain small point sizes to make small points, scotty?

You might be surprised to discover this, but a not insignificant proportion of Scots were born in Scotland; the phrase "goes with the territory" somehow comes to mind...

[mangerton]

Mary Queen of Scots (who, of course, wasn't really Scottish either) was said to have introduced a type of marmalade to Scotland from her native France, and the crafty locals then perfected the process to produce the delicious item that we know today.

Yes, indeed. The particular "crafty local" in this case was a Mrs Keiller from Dundee.

[Pabmusic]

Yes, they (generally the English) say that about nearly everything the Scots jealously regard as their own.

You know the sort of thing .. 'it was actually the Dutch who invented golf' ... 'kilts and bagpipes first came from the Middle East' ... 'William Wallace was really Welsh' ... 'Alexander Graham Bell was an American citizen' ... and, horror of horrors 'it was the Irish who first made whisky' ... all that sort of stuff.

Mary Queen of Scots (who, of course, wasn't really Scottish either) was said to have introduced a type of marmalade to Scotland from her native France, and the crafty locals then perfected the process to produce the delicious item that we know today.

That's the whole point. Unlike their southern neighbours, the Scots are not a naturally Euro-sceptic race, and loved to learn from their continental neighbours, and also travel the wider world to pick up good ideas from the natives to then set up proper business there or at home, whilst cunningly acquiring global intellectual property rights.

Easy!

I don't follow you. Are you saying that I've got it wrong? Or indeed that the other things you list are wrong? Or are you suggesting we preserve myths as truths because they are colourful? (And aren't you just assuming I'm English as well?)

I am not knocking the Scots, or anyone else.

[scottycelt]

No, it wasn't meant to be a point, small or large, it was simply a now obviously failed attempt to continue the general atmosphere of light-heartedness in the discussion, ahinton ...

[scottycelt]

I don't follow you. Are you saying that I've got it wrong? Or indeed that the other things you list are wrong? Or are you suggesting we preserve myths as truths because they are colourful? (And aren't you just assuming I'm English as well?)

I am not knocking the Scots, or anyone else.

I think I'll go back to bed ...

[ahinton]

No, it wasn't meant to be a point, small or large, it was simply a now obviously failed attempt to continue the general atmosphere of light-heartedness in the discussion, ahinton ...

Failed? Mais non! My remark was intended to draw attention to the smallness and not the small-mindedness of the point, although perhaps that fact did not come across to you!

[3rd Viennese School]

Extremely annoying pieces of music.

Everything that Radio 3 now play on Performance on 3.

i.e. Wigmore Hall song recitals, Wagner Operas Part 1, Wagner Operas Part 2, Handel Vocal music, Elgar Vocal music, Vocal music, Brahms symphony no.2 again, Wagner Operas Part 14...

It's got so bad I now listen to Classic FM during this time.

And missed the Discovering Music on Liszt Piano sonata in B minor!


no. Hang on.



3VS

[3rd Viennese School]

"Shostakovich throws one into the first movement of his 15th for a giggle, I seem to remember. " (a 12 note theme)

It's mvt 2.

3VS

[Nick Armstrong]

"Shostakovich throws one into the first movement of his 15th for a giggle, I seem to remember. " (a 12 note theme)

It's mvt 2.

3VS

Actually I think he constructs a 12-tone theme in at least three of the movements, having thought about it. You mean the cello theme in the 2nd movement I think.

I was thinking of the theme (possibly the catchiest 12-tone theme ever written?) from the 1st movement: it's the 12 note theme bracketed as (b) in Example 15 in this essay. https://www.amherst.edu/media/view/2...81993%2529.pdf It uses all 12 tones without repetition which is what qualifies it as a 12-tone row I think?

It recurs several times, but that illustration is a trombone solo and I recall (discovering this piece around the age of 15, and being a trombonist) learning it and using it as a rather 'esoteric' signature tune to play repeatedly to warm up before concerts.

Pretentious? Moi?



Anyway 3VS I think we're both right