Delius on BBC4

[Lateralthinking1]

The BBC MM CD 'Sea Drift' features the BBC NOW and Chorus/Bach Choir/Hampson/Hickox recorded live at the Proms on 19 July 2004.

Thank you for that advice. It might be the best to be found on CD. I do hope though that the Elder makes it onto disc. Colin Anderson, Classicalsource.com (!), describing the performance on 24 March -

‘Elder paced the work [Sea Drift] perfectly, alive to its ebb and flow and its puffing and billowing … Roderick Williams’s honeyed baritone, effortless projection and impeccable enunciation bringing distinction to a 25-minute journey (so too Pieter Schoeman’s violin solos) that can seem unrelievedly sad (doom-laden bass drum strokes adding to the gloom) until spring-like consolation finally offers some hope. Whether Sea Drift is Delius’s masterpiece or not, this was a winning performance of it.’

[gurnemanz]

Having started this thread, I've only just got around to watching the programme and reading through all the comments. Both experiences make me want to go and listen to the music. He has been a bit of a blind spot for me over the years (no pun ...sorry) and I bought the 150th anniversary box a few months ago to remedy this, but have so far only dipped in. I was interested in the point about his life and his music being essentially hedonistic i.e. I assume that implies to be listened to for its individual moments of sound rather than for its linear development.

I have recently read this very recommendable Beecham biography which sheds quite a lot of light on his relationship with Delius. I also remember a well done Radio 4 Afternoon Play based around his time in Florida.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Amateur opinion moment. I would steer clear of Handley - acceptable/functional, lacking depth/passion. He doesn't really get it.

... the only polite response to this is that there are other, quite different opinions!

is the version of Sea Drift on the BBC Magazine CD that one or as I suspect something else?

No, it's a Live recording led by Hickox - vastly superior to the studio version he did in the early '80s - and much better than Elder's, whom I would recommend steering clear of. Acceptable (I suppose)/functional, but lacking in depth/ passion. He doesn't get close to it.

[Lateralthinking1]

... the only polite response to this is that there are other, quite different opinions!


No, it's a Live recording led by Hickox - vastly superior to the studio version he did in the early '80s - and much better than Elder's, whom I would recommend steering clear of. Acceptable (I suppose)/functional, but lacking in depth/ passion. He doesn't get close to it.

Yes thank you. On the first, quite so.

On the second, are we discussing the same thing ferney? The impression I had was that Elder's removal of Beecham's notations was only done very recently. I could be wrong but is it possible that the recording you know was made before he did so?

[Pabmusic]

... the only polite response to this is that there are other, quite different opinions!

And I share one of those other opinions. I attended a talk at Malvern that Vernon Handley gave shortly after he'd recorded the collection that includes Brigg Fair. He spent some time explaining how and why his interpretation differed from Beecham's. There was a lot, but much of it boiled down to his following the score, rather than amending it. Delius's music should be able to stand being played as written - it should not need a special 'secret'.

[Lateralthinking1]

And I share one of those other opinions. I attended a talk at Malvern that Vernon Handley gave shortly after he'd recorded the collection that includes Brigg Fair. He spent some time explaining how and why his interpretation differed from Beecham's. There was a lot, but much of it boiled down to his following the score, rather than amending it.

Well, now it gets a little confusing. I am quite happy to take on board votes for Handley. Different views etc.

However, is it not the case that many of Beecham's changes were made so early on that for all intents and purposes they became a part of the accepted score? What was Delius and what was Beecham? Did anyone ask?

Now that is not to say Beecham didn't make further interpretive changes much later on but can we really say that Handley's arguably more loyal approach was devoid of any early Beecham input? I'm not so sure from what we heard in the programme.

And Elder's approach to Sea Drift was presented as entirely novel in removing all the Beecham "trills".

[Barbirollians]

I would be minded to recommend this as a DElius starter for anyone allergic to Beecham http://www.amazon.co.uk/Delius-Orche...sim_sbs_m_h__2

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

On the second, are we discussing the same thing ferney? The impression I had was that Elder's removal of Beecham's notations was only done very recently. I could be wrong but is it possible that the recording you know was made before he did so?

Well, I confess that the only Elder/Delius recording I've heard was the one on the Hallé's own label coupled with works by Bax and Bridge. The performances didn't make me want to listen to it again, nor seek out any further Elder performances of Delius, so I'm talking from very limited experience (hence the emoticons implying mischief rather than serious discussion in my previous post).

Elder has never rocked my boat - until the excerpt from the slow movement of RVW's London Symphony played on last Saturday's CDReview: there was a magic I've not heard before in his interpretations. Maybe his Sea Drift will change my prejudices. (Just as, incidentally, Hickox's BBCMusMag shone an entirely new light on a conductor whose recordings never excited me.)

[Lateralthinking1]

I would be minded to recommend this as a DElius starter for anyone allergic to Beecham http://www.amazon.co.uk/Delius-Orche...sim_sbs_m_h__2

That looks very interesting actually. I am seeing things like this:

Handley = Delius with Beecham's early input : convinces others but feels a little underwhelming to me
Beecham = Delius with Beecham's early input plus added Beecham (after Delius's death)
Elder = Delius minus Beecham (at least recently in regard to Sea Drift)

The one Barbirollians you mention might just be as per Handley but more for me. In a sense you need three - one true to the original collaboration, a full Beecham and one with no Beecham additives.

[Pabmusic]

...What was Delius and what was Beecham? Did anyone ask?

Now that is not to say Beecham didn't make further interpretive changes much later on but can we really say that Handley's arguably more loyal approach was devoid of any early Beecham input? I'm not so sure from what we heard in the programme.

And Elder's approach to Sea Drift was presented as entirely novel in removing all the Beecham "trills".

I have no special commission in this, but I can say that many Delius scores were published before Beecham got his hands on them and produced his own versions. This is certainly the case with Brigg Fair. I recall that Handley drew attention to the interludes (the bits that aren't variations) where many small nudges and swells were added for Beecham's edited version, and which Beecham takes very slowly indeed (the playing, of course, is very beautiful). Handley is notably faster, but clearly relates these sections to the overall shape of the piece very well. Trevor Harvey in the Gramophone (it was 1982) was very complimentary about this.

As for Mark Elder's being the first, it's not so - though it's very refreshing to see conductors questioning the source material.

[Lateralthinking1]

I have no special commission in this, but I can say that many Delius scores were published before Beecham got his hands on them and produced his own versions. This is certainly the case with Brigg Fair. I recall that Handley drew attention to the interludes (the bits that aren't variations) where many small nudges and swells were added for Beecham's edited version, and which Beecham takes very slowly indeed (the playing, of course, is very beautiful). Handley is notably faster, but clearly relates these sections to the overall shape of the piece very well. Trevor Harvey in the Gramophone (it was 1982) was very complimentary about this.



As for Mark Elder's being the first, it's not so - though it's very refreshing to see conductors questioning the source material.

Thank you pabmusic for that clarification - much appreciated - and also to ferney. Oddly, I too listened to RVW's A London Symphony this week on Radio 3. They must be in repeat mode. It was on TTN - Slatkin and the BBC Symphony Orchestra. I have Previn and the London Symphony Orchestra and doubt that I will ever prefer another. It was my first and I've never heard anything better but I am a bit biased there. Still, I might see if I can listen to the one on CD Review. Sounds fascinating. My main point about Elder though was that I liked what we heard on the programme of Sea Drift. Nothing other than that really and not the be all and end all. Not as a replacement. I just feel that there is a place for it and could think of it as a case of less is more.

[Barbirollians]

I think there is scope for different interpretations . I was introduced to Delius by a CfP recording by Handley of many favourite Delius pieces but I love Beecham's way with the music too .

Barbirolli however is probably my favourite conductor of his works ( as so often ! ) not too much perfume not too brisk just splendidly passionate .

[Barbirollians]

Anyone who wants the violin sonatas it must be the late Ralph Holmes as it the concerto he wipes the floor with Little .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Anyone who wants the violin sonatas it must be the late Ralph Holmes as it the concerto he wipes the floor with Little .

Absolutely agree; 'though I wouldn't want to undervalue the terrific work Ms Little has done throughout her career in performing and promoting this repertoire.

[Barbirollians]

Absolutely agree; 'though I wouldn't want to undervalue the terrific work Ms Little has done throughout her career in performing and promoting this repertoire.

Fair point .

Back on topic . I enjoyed the programme. Delius did not strike me as an attractive character. His treatment of women appeared to be abusive in many ways . Some fascinating insights though and not too much of the celebs listening to music guff. Andrew Davis was as annoying as ever.