Karajanophobia; is there a cure?

[visualnickmos]

I've just spent half an hour looking over my CDs from a chronologic standpoint. I see that when I was young ie. early 20s, I obtained a fair number of HvK CDs in my collection - a few being a couple of LvB sets, a 'lone' Sibelius 2 (EMI) and the ubiquitous Richard Strauss usual suspects - oh and some Mozart - mainly Requiem etc. Plus a few other random works. At that time (the '80s) I somewhat naively went along with the idea that was inculcated in me from school, that "if it's HvK, it's gonna be good"

For many years now, I have moved away from this odd premise, and not purchased any HvK for over 20 years, or more.

My question is this; am I being unfair to the old oracle, and maybe should I revisit some of his output with fresh ears (sorry - odd terminology) or am I being realistic by avoiding a conductor who seemed to gain massive cult following purely because of who he was, as opposed to what he was in terms of musical excellence?

A bit of a ramble, this one, I know, but....

Nick

[Beef Oven]

I've just spent half an hour looking over my CDs from a chronologic standpoint. I see that when I was young ie. early 20s, I obtained a fair number of HvK CDs in my collection - a few being a couple of LvB sets, a 'lone' Sibelius 2 (EMI) and the ubiquitous Richard Strauss usual suspects - oh and some Mozart - mainly Requiem etc. Plus a few other random works. At that time (the '80s) I somewhat naively went along with the idea that was inculcated in me from school, that "if it's HvK, it's gonna be good"

For many years now, I have moved away from this odd premise, and not purchased any HvK for over 20 years, or more.

My question is this; am I being unfair to the old oracle, and maybe should I revisit some of his output with fresh ears (sorry - odd terminology) or am I being realistic by avoiding a conductor who seemed to gain massive cult following purely because of who he was, as opposed to what he was in terms of musical excellence?

A bit of a ramble, this one, I know, but....

Nick

"You can say what you like, but he's a great conductor" Reginald Goodall on Karajan (from 'The Genius of Valhalla' by John Lucas).

[jayne lee wilson]

I've just spent half an hour looking over my CDs from a chronologic standpoint. I see that when I was young ie. early 20s, I obtained a fair number of HvK CDs in my collection - a few being a couple of LvB sets, a 'lone' Sibelius 2 (EMI) and the ubiquitous Richard Strauss usual suspects - oh and some Mozart - mainly Requiem etc. Plus a few other random works. At that time (the '80s) I somewhat naively went along with the idea that was inculcated in me from school, that "if it's HvK, it's gonna be good"

For many years now, I have moved away from this odd premise, and not purchased any HvK for over 20 years, or more.

My question is this; am I being unfair to the old oracle, and maybe should I revisit some of his output with fresh ears (sorry - odd terminology) or am I being realistic by avoiding a conductor who seemed to gain massive cult following purely because of who he was, as opposed to what he was in terms of musical excellence?

A bit of a ramble, this one, I know, but....

Nick

There's no easy answer to this really. A number of conductors - Dorati, Kertesz etc. perhaps gained greater prominence through being in at the start of the Stereo era, Karajan obviously among them. Artists who made a large number of recordings are bound to have more hits and misses than most. With Karajan you simply have to be selective - I'll always return to his mid-60s Sibelius, Honegger 2&3, Prokofiev 5, most of his Bruckner with both VPO and BPO; his Beethoven cycles seemed to become less gripping with time, but the 1962 one should remain a classic, even if I would rather hear a HIPS performance now. Again, much of his Haydn can suffer from "too many players, too few repeats" - but he's not the only one. Yet in amongst those there's a swift and dramatic 1971 No. 83 on EMI, a pair of lovely, earlier 104s with the VPO...

The live Beethoven 9th on the BPO's short-lived live label is pretty fine; and so on. I'll leave others to comment on his operatic productions, as I've not heard nearly enough of it. I do remember enjoying his 1964 Price/VPO Carmen hugely, and his Debussy Pelleas is an out-and-out classic, which probably underlines the Wagnerian inheritance more than any other has even dared to attempt.

Just dip in and explore - you're bound to discover some buried treasure, for he was, no doubt at all, a great musician and a great conductor - at heart really an opera-pit kapellmeister from an earlier tradition who took advantage of modern marketing techniques when they were still fresh, and like many conductors enjoyed his money!

[PJPJ]

You may like to try the live recordings on Testament and the Shostakovich 10 on Melodiya, too - I note there's another Testament forthcoming in a month or two.

The first DG stereo cycle's Beethoven 6 was likened at the time to a quick drive through the country in a limousine (I forget the exact wording); in the light of speedier tempos these days, not to mention Carlos Kleiber's from a while ago, I wonder whether any critic has the same view as that today.

[Curalach]

he was, no doubt at all, a great musician and a great conductor

I agree, and he was of his time. Times, and to some extent, tastes have changed. I only saw him conduct once, an EIF concert, and it was certainly memorable as were others of that era from Szell, Klemperer, Kempe etc. As JLW has pointed out, some of his work has never been bettered. Enjoy it for what it is with historical perspective and don't be concerned with his erstwhile cult status.

[PJPJ]

Indeed. And don't overlook some of those mono EMI recordings where there are gems like Britten, VW, Roussel.......in terrific performances. What a way he had with the Strauss family as well as Richard - his New Year's Day concert recording on DG is, I think, sublime.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

am I being realistic by avoiding a conductor who seemed to gain massive cult following purely because of who he was, as opposed to what he was in terms of musical excellence?

But who was Karajan, visnick? How can he possibly be remembered now, except "in terms of Musical excellence"? He became "who he was" because of his outstanding Musicianship - other aspects of "who he was" are at best irrelevant (the aircraft pilot, the mountaineer, the sailor) or distinctly unsavoury at worst (his opportunism, his poor treatment of some colleagues, the tunnel vision of his ego that led to the cult of personality that he encouraged). The persona was abandoned in the Music-making; that was his focus in performance and on record.

And what performances he left: Beethoven (the Symphonies, the Overtures, Fidelio, the Missa Solemnis), Brahms (two - at least - of the finest German Requiems ever recorded), Debussy, Sibelius, Honneger, Puccini, Wagner, Strauss, Strauss (family), Tchaikovsky, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Verdi, Mahler ... and Bruckner. I can't think of another Musician who delivered so much from such a vast range of repertoire; someone, too, equally at home in comedy and tragedy

There is nothing at all "wrong" in disliking Karajan's Musicianship (plenty do!) or in not thinking it so profound as many others do. But in the pacing, weight and power of his Music-making, I do think it is a huge mistake to detect the flaws of the man.

[Petrushka]

That's a pretty fair assessment I think, Jayne, and I'd mostly agree. My last Karajan CD purchases were his Ring, when HMV in Oxford Street were selling it for £40 and before that, the DG Symphony Edition when Amazon were practically giving it away at £33 for a 38 disc set (surely an error?).

What I would like to see, and I've said this on here before, are issues of live performances because Karajan, like so many, was a different animal from the one in the recording studio. Some have appeared but need diligent searching out. Testament have issued some of the London concerts but we've had very little coming out of Berlin, Vienna or Salzburg. A live Bruckner 9 from the 1976 Salzburg Festival with the VPO, to take one example, is the finest account of the work I've ever heard and shows that Karajan live would allow us to appreciate his interpretative genius anew.

[cloughie]

I've just spent half an hour looking over my CDs from a chronologic standpoint. I see that when I was young ie. early 20s, I obtained a fair number of HvK CDs in my collection - a few being a couple of LvB sets, a 'lone' Sibelius 2 (EMI) and the ubiquitous Richard Strauss usual suspects - oh and some Mozart - mainly Requiem etc. Plus a few other random works. At that time (the '80s) I somewhat naively went along with the idea that was inculcated in me from school, that "if it's HvK, it's gonna be good"

For many years now, I have moved away from this odd premise, and not purchased any HvK for over 20 years, or more.

My question is this; am I being unfair to the old oracle, and maybe should I revisit some of his output with fresh ears (sorry - odd terminology) or am I being realistic by avoiding a conductor who seemed to gain massive cult following purely because of who he was, as opposed to what he was in terms of musical excellence?

A bit of a ramble, this one, I know, but....

Nick

Just revisit and re-listen with an open mind - he's sometimes overblown (eg Mozart) and maybe too polished, sometimes superb, sometimes too slick but rarely boring and mostly sound - I don't always like the way he does things but eg his big EMI Orchestral box shows the great span of what he has done over the years.

[gurnemanz]

That's a pretty fair assessment I think, Jayne, and I'd mostly agree. My last Karajan CD purchases were his Ring, when HMV in Oxford Street were selling it for £40 and before that, the DG Symphony Edition when Amazon were practically giving it away at £33 for a 38 disc set (surely an error?).

I was subject to the syndrome for about 40 years, owning very few discs (eg Mahler 6, Metamorphosen + Janowitz Four last Songs). When that absurdly priced Symphony box came up, I was encouraged to take the plunge. I have not relished everything in it but have found much to enjoy - Bruckner, Mendelssohn, Schumann. It would be rather surprising if someone who was principal conductor of one of the world's great orchestras for several decades had produced nothing worth hearing.

[Mr Pee]

His disc of Metamorphosen and Tod und Verklarung should be more than enough on its own to dispel any remaining Karajanophobia.

[jayne lee wilson]

That's a pretty fair assessment I think, Jayne, and I'd mostly agree. My last Karajan CD purchases were his Ring, when HMV in Oxford Street were selling it for £40 and before that, the DG Symphony Edition when Amazon were practically giving it away at £33 for a 38 disc set (surely an error?).

What I would like to see, and I've said this on here before, are issues of live performances because Karajan, like so many, was a different animal from the one in the recording studio. Some have appeared but need diligent searching out. Testament have issued some of the London concerts but we've had very little coming out of Berlin, Vienna or Salzburg. A live Bruckner 9 from the 1976 Salzburg Festival with the VPO, to take one example, is the finest account of the work I've ever heard and shows that Karajan live would allow us to appreciate his interpretative genius anew.

Yes, it's very frustrating - tantalising - to think of what must lie in the vaults of Berlin or Austrian Radio. I've often wondered if his family are (wrong-headedly) "protecting" his memory, or honouring his wishes... Remember all those concert recordings that Radio 3 would put out, often on a Sunday morning in the 1970s (which Richard Osborne once dubbed "The Karajan Hour"). I remember wildly joyful performances of Brahms 2, Mahler 5; darkly, sparely-toned, searching Bruckner 8s and 9s, from Berlin, or Vienna, or Salzburg...

[verismissimo]

other aspects of "who he was" are at best irrelevant (the aircraft pilot, the mountaineer, the sailor) or distinctly unsavoury at worst (his opportunism, his poor treatment of some colleagues, the tunnel vision of his ego that led to the cult of personality that he encouraged)... I do think it is a huge mistake to detect the flaws of the man.

I agree with this, ferney, but he did make it all extremely difficult to ignore. Perhaps easier for a younger generation, who didn't have to live through it all!

[visualnickmos]

As always - the depth and quality of all your response to this discussion, is overwhelming. I am now set to reinvestigate HvK - and greatly looking forward to doing so. I had no idea he'd recorded any RVW. That will be interesting.

Another chapter thus opens in my enjoyment of the rich world of music. Thanks to all.

[Bryn]

As always - the depth and quality of all your response to this discussion, is overwhelming. I am now set to reinvestigate HvK - and greatly looking forward to doing so. I had no idea he'd recorded any RVW. That will be interesting.

Another chapter thus opens in my enjoyment of the rich world of music. Thanks to all.

Start with Honegger 2 & 3, HvK's at his very best, to my ears.