Folk Song, Art Song

[aeolium]

Quite an interesting programme on R4 today presented by Christopher Maltman on folk song. There were some thought-provoking comments, including criticism by Tim Healey of that Ferrier song and (qualified) by Thomas Allen of some of Britten's arrangements.

Available on LA for a week.

[Chris Newman]

Quite an interesting programme on R4 today presented by Christopher Maltman on folk song. There were some thought-provoking comments, including criticism by Tim Healey of that Ferrier song and (qualified) by Thomas Allen of some of Britten's arrangements.

Available on LA for a week.

Thanks for that, aeolium. It was enjoyable and thoughtful.

[Mary Chambers]

Thank you so much for alerting me to this programme, which I would certainly have missed otherwise. It's one of my favourite subjects. I've always loved folk songs, and being a wartime child, I was brought up on the National Song Book, Pears and Ferrier. I knew all the songs in the programme, and many more.

I have no objection whatsoever to them being sung by 'trained voices'. In fact I find that less pretentious than people being, if you like, self-consciously untrained. As was said in the programme 'authenticity is elusive', and is there any reason for aiming at it anyway? Who knows in what kind of style or Austrian accent Schubert's songs were originally sung? Good songs are good songs, and adaptable.

Graham Johnson would have been a good addition to the programme - he has plenty to say about the Britten arrangements - but I very much enjoyed Julius Drake's contributions. I felt suspicious of the folk singer (was it Eliza Carthy?) who said that often in 'classical' arrangements 'the music overpowers the song'. I had no idea they were separate.

[aeolium]

Yes, I thought it was a programme that could have benefitted by being longer, and having other contributors - perhaps an R3 Sunday Feature. There were some strong caveats made about the supposed authenticity of some of the songs, which in some cases turned out to be composed ballads. I'd rather hear a trained singer sing folk songs than an untrained one but there can come a point at which the sophistication of the arrangement can destroy the naturalness and simplicity of the song. Like Maltman, I liked the Benjamin Luxon example at the conclusion of the programme.

[Nick Armstrong]

Thank you so much for alerting me to this programme

Seconded, thanks!

[cloughie]

Thank you so much for alerting me to this programme, which I would certainly have missed otherwise. It's one of my favourite subjects. I've always loved folk songs, and being a wartime child, I was brought up on the National Song Book, Pears and Ferrier. I knew all the songs in the programme, and many more.

I have no objection whatsoever to them being sung by 'trained voices'. In fact I find that less pretentious than people being, if you like, self-consciously untrained. As was said in the programme 'authenticity is elusive', and is there any reason for aiming at it anyway? Who knows in what kind of style or Austrian accent Schubert's songs were originally sung? Good songs are good songs, and adaptable.

Graham Johnson would have been a good addition to the programme - he has plenty to say about the Britten arrangements - but I very much enjoyed Julius Drake's contributions. I felt suspicious of the folk singer (was it Eliza Carthy?) who said that often in 'classical' arrangements 'the music overpowers the song'. I had no idea they were separate.

I think that the nature of folksong is that evolutionary and can stand up to most influences and treatments. My personal preference for listening is the 60s/70s Folk-rock treatment by Fairport Convention/Steeleye span/Albion Band, but also like participating in unaccompanied singing. Lesley Garrett was on this morning 's TV breakfast show plugging her new Folk CD, recorded with an orchestra. Nice voice, nice songs, nice arrangements - but do they fit together. She said one of her influences was Kate Rusby, but maybe Kate does a more ear-pleasing job!

[doversoul1]

Seconded, thanks!

…and why is this not on Radio3???

[teamsaint]

Folk music needs real love and enthusiasm, and understanding. It's flexible, and as bands like Bellowhead show, can take a variety of approaches, incuding an "Art Song" approach.
I am very wary of people using genres purely as career vehicles.

Can't say a Lesley Garrett approach entices me.........but maybe its brilliant.

On the other hand, I have thought for a while that a populist approach to some Lieder , for instance, might be fruitful, given the wealth of wonderful material. But Ii suppose it would inevitably be Sting to do it......................

[cloughie]

Folk music needs real love and enthusiasm, and understanding. It's flexible, and as bands like Bellowhead show, can take a variety of approaches, incuding an "Art Song" approach.
I am very wary of people using genres purely as career vehicles.

Can't say a Lesley Garrett approach entices me.........but maybe its brilliant.

On the other hand, I have thought for a while that a populist approach to some Lieder , for instance, might be fruitful, given the wealth of wonderful material. But Ii suppose it would inevitably be Sting to do it......................

I remember frm years ago Barbara Courtney-King with an ensemble including Rod Argent and Julian Lloyd-Wbber, brought out an abum called Pastouelle which was interesting arrangements of the songs of the Auvergne. I think the Schubert thing could be done, but not with Sting, or at least not with Sting's voice! Who has the sublety for such a project? Who has the voice(s) to deliver - need a male and a female? Need a good clear voice, relatively free of vibrato, free of the awful current pop warbling sound, modern translations into English which don't sound naff. Right, where do we go from here?

[teamsaint]

Very Difficult Cloughie. We are so used to Lieder being sung by singers of great skill, and of a particular type, that its difficult to envision something else.

What about a varied selection of singers.......male and female. I could imagine Annie Lennox doing justice to one song, but perhaps not a complete cycle.
who else?
Andy Partridge might give you the emotional quality required.
Jon Boden could carry off a song or two.

[Mary Chambers]

We are so used to Lieder being sung by singers of great skill, and of a particular type, that its difficult to envision something else.

That depends on your age, I imagine. When I Was Young (sorry to bring this up again) it was perfectly usual for amateurs of all types to sing Schubert songs. We sang them in class singing lessons,usually in English, including isolated songs from the song cycles. This was the 1950s. I don't think people were nearly as purist then. Perhaps it sounded awful, I don't know, but at least people knew them.

Now, I have got used to hearing them sung by well-trained voices, and I have a nasty feeling I'd cringe at anything else.
I do have a recording of a boy treble, Harry Sever, singing Die Schöne Müllerin, but he's pretty professional.

[teamsaint]

That depends on your age, I imagine. When I Was Young (sorry to bring this up again) it was perfectly usual for amateurs of all types to sing Schubert songs. We sang them in class singing lessons,usually in English, including isolated songs from the song cycles. This was the 1950s. I don't think people were nearly as purist then. Perhaps it sounded awful, I don't know, but at least people knew them.

Now, I have got used to hearing them sung by well-trained voices, and I have a nasty feeling I'd cringe at anything else.
I do have a recording of a boy treble, Harry Sever, singing Die Schöne Müllerin, but he's pretty professional.

well that is really interesting. I really cannot remember ever having heard, for instance, Schubert Lieder sung by anybody other than trained Classical singer.
You get to the point that I was aiming for though....that there is such a wealth of great material that deserves to have a wider audience. How that can be done is another matter.

Alex Harvey would have made a good stab at one or two, I reckon !!

[cloughie]

well that is really interesting. I really cannot remember ever having heard, for instance, Schubert Lieder sung by anybody other than trained Classical singer.
You get to the point that I was aiming for though....that there is such a wealth of great material that deserves to have a wider audience. How that can be done is another matter.

Alex Harvey would have made a good stab at one or two, I reckon !!

Greg Lake, Justin Hayward and Jack Bruce.
Barbara Dickson, Kiki Dee and Elkie Brooks.

[JFLL]

When I Was Young (sorry to bring this up again) it was perfectly usual for amateurs of all types to sing Schubert songs.

I remember sometime in the mid-70s staying with some friends in a flat in Deal – a modern flat, with not particularly good sound-insulation. On the Sunday morning we were having a rather late breakfast when from the flat below there suddenly arose a pleasant baritone voice singing Schumann's 'Ich grolle nicht'. I knew the song, but it hadn't particularly registered. I was of a generation/class (1950s, lower-middle) when such amateur music-making was regarded as having been superseded by gramophone records. Ever since, though, that song's been a special favourite. It needed an amateur performance through the floorboards to bring the song alive for me! What we missed.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A great memory, JFLL.

... of course, it could be said that what you experienced was akin to a "HIPP" event: Schumann's Music "performed" in the sort of "venue" he most expected it to be performed, by an "untrained" "amateur" (ie "lover of Music") of the sort he most expected to perform it!