Enough Schubert

[Mary Chambers]

the simple combination of voice plus piano in a Classical music context is something that is not immediately pleasing to the ear (compared for example to Perry Como plus strings).

That depends on the ear, I think!

I didn't understand your first sentence. I don't think I ever said artists shouldn't be expert linguists, but perhaps that's not what you meant.

[Anna]

If some people don't like the sound of German lieder, well, that's not really much of a problem, is it

No, and I have a real aversion to it (to me, that is not a problem) which is why (much as I like Schubert) R3 has been a total no-go area for me all week because there is just so much lieder mixed in with other stuff in every single programme. If they had separated out the lieder from his other compositions I wouldn't have had a problem with the total immersion and could pick and choose what I listened to. Thank goodness R3 will be back to normal next week, as I've missed it.

[cloughie]

That depends on the ear, I think!

Very much so, eg I can listen to Felicity Lott, Barbara Bonney or Arleen Auger all day, but other more strident or vibrato-laden voices cause me to switch off immediately.

[teamsaint]

oddball and cloughie together have cracked it, I feel.
For a novice like me, enjoyment of lieder require

1. A basic understanding of the Lyric on the part of the listener. (even if its a spectacularly romantic piece this at least helps).
and
2. A voice that is trying to convey meaning and sensitivity, rather than appearing to want to reach the back of some particularly vast concert hall at top volume.

Then it has a chance.

[gurnemanz]

An interesting thread, which has given me the opportunity to clarify my thoughts on this subject.

Mary Chambers is right of course. We can't expect an artist in addition to their artistic skills, to be an expert multilinguist. But even if they were, being an expert German speaker still may not help fathom out a piece of 18th Century poetry written in an Austrian dialect, current at that period. So a translation is necessary.

Although he did set quite a lot Goethe, Schiller and Heine, considered to be among the greatest of German poets, his texts, frequently by his friends, are often not great poetry. They are, however, serious literary efforts written in High German (i.e. not dialect). I can't actually think of any Schubert song written in dialect (unlike, say, Mahler's Des Knaben Wunderhorn settings).

If you like classical music,some understanding of German is surely an undeniable advantage, helping you to get to grips with anything from Bruckner's tempo markings to the Matthew Passion or the Ring Cycle. The same is true of knowledge of English for Germans who like rock and pop. Any language teacher will tell you that song texts are a great way of learning a language and remembering chunks of text. I taught German for umpteen years and used nursery rhymes and joke songs with younger pupils and sometimes played Schubert or Schumann songs to Sixth Form A Level students. Studying the Lieder texts can be quite a useful aid in picking up some German. Ian Bostridge has said that while at school he first got interested in Lieder when his German teacher played them some Fischer-Dieskau.

The main problem is that the British generally can't be bothered to learn foreign languages.

[cloughie]

Although he did set quite a lot Goethe, Schiller and Heine, considered to be among the greatest of German poets, his texts, frequently by his friends, are often not great poetry. They are, however, serious literary efforts written in High German (i.e. not dialect). I can't actually think of any Schubert song written in dialect (unlike, say, Mahler's Des Knaben Wunderhorn settings).

If you like classical music,some understanding of German is surely an undeniable advantage, helping you to get to grips with anything from Bruckner's tempo markings to the Matthew Passion or the Ring Cycle. The same is true of knowledge of English for Germans who like rock and pop. Any language teacher will tell you that song texts are a great way of learning a language and remembering chunks of text. I taught German for umpteen years and used nursery rhymes and joke songs with younger pupils and sometimes played Schubert or Schumann songs to Sixth Form A Level students. Studying the Lieder texts can be quite a useful aid in picking up some German. Ian Bostridge has said that while at school he first got interested in Lieder when his German teacher played them some Fischer-Dieskau.

The main problem is that the British generally can't be bothered to learn foreign languages.

The language I think is more important in performance than listening. As a chorister I sing the odd song in a foreign language and whilst I have not an in-depth knowledge it is important to get the right emphasis on the words and an idea of what the song is about if it is to be performed effectively for the audience.

[teamsaint]

Although he did set quite a lot Goethe, Schiller and Heine, considered to be among the greatest of German poets, his texts, frequently by his friends, are often not great poetry. They are, however, serious literary efforts written in High German (i.e. not dialect). I can't actually think of any Schubert song written in dialect (unlike, say, Mahler's Des Knaben Wunderhorn settings).

If you like classical music,some understanding of German is surely an undeniable advantage, helping you to get to grips with anything from Bruckner's tempo markings to the Matthew Passion or the Ring Cycle. The same is true of knowledge of English for Germans who like rock and pop. Any language teacher will tell you that song texts are a great way of learning a language and remembering chunks of text. I taught German for umpteen years and used nursery rhymes and joke songs with younger pupils and sometimes played Schubert or Schumann songs to Sixth Form A Level students. Studying the Lieder texts can be quite a useful aid in picking up some German. Ian Bostridge has said that while at school he first got interested in Lieder when his German teacher played them some Fischer-Dieskau.

The main problem is that the British generally can't be bothered to learn foreign languages.

well, there isn't much incentive when most things can be obtained by talking louder and pointing.

ZWEI BIER BITTE !! (or something ).

[kernelbogey]

[...]But I sympathise with this view, beacause most English people don't know any German - in fact there is an anti-German ethos is the media (all those WWII war films!)[...].

I wonder how much of an anti-German ethos there is in this country? It seems to be fed from time to time by the tabloid press, there are the ubiquitous WWII films, Cats who look like Hitler etc etc. Although the French are said to be our oldest enemies, I think as a nation we express more of an affinity with them than we yet do with the Germans. This is a puzzle to me.

[doversoul1]

My German is roughly the level of Lesson 2 in Teach Yourself German, and as for Latin, Italian and French I know a dozen words and phrases each. I often find following the words difficult even in English. I do wish I knew all these languages but realistically speaking, even if I begin to learn now, there is no way I’ll be able to learn and reach the level where I can not only understand but actually appreciate the words in all these languages. I look at translation whenever it is available but if not I am happy to just know what the song is about.

I became interested in vocal music only very recently and it was not the words but the beauty of human voice that struck me. My point is, it may not seem ‘right’ to many expert listeners but surely I am allowed to enjoy music in this way without being made to feel inadequate or having to defend myself?

[Jonathan]

I tend to agree with Anna here, I'm not a fan of lieder either but in between them, there have been things of interest (mostly very obscure piano works which we never hear). As I'm at work and usually can't be bothered to put the radio on except when in the car, I've barely listened this week and have made do with CDs.

My knowledge of any language (aside from English) is poor although I do know quite a lot of latin.

[teamsaint]

My German is roughly the level of Lesson 2 in Teach Yourself German, and as for Latin, Italian and French I know a dozen words and phrases each. I often find following the words difficult even in English. I do wish I knew all these languages but realistically speaking, even if I begin to learn now, there is no way I’ll be able to learn and reach the level where I can not only understand but actually appreciate the words in all these languages. I look at translation whenever it is available but if not I am happy to just know what the song is about.

I became interested in vocal music only very recently and it was not the words but the beauty of human voice that struck me. My point is, it may not seem ‘right’ to many expert listeners but surely I am allowed to enjoy music in this way without being made to feel inadequate or having to defend myself?

Absolutely.....enjoy it any way you want. However, the internet has been a real blessing for stuff like this. I have been listening to a good deal of Brahms choral music recently, and just a quick look at the translations (and some appear never to have been translated in print) is a massive help.
There is some terrific stuff about blacksmiths , for instance.
and "blacksmith", as you can imagine, takes a bit of skill to scan in german. it is 48 letters long.

[Resurrection Man]

No, and I have a real aversion to it (to me, that is not a problem) which is why (much as I like Schubert) R3 has been a total no-go area for me all week because there is just so much lieder mixed in with other stuff in every single programme. If they had separated out the lieder from his other compositions I wouldn't have had a problem with the total immersion and could pick and choose what I listened to. Thank goodness R3 will be back to normal next week, as I've missed it.

That is an excellent suggestion, Anna, and certainly might have made me be a bit more adventurous. But, like you, I have an aversion to lieder.

The topic of ones lack of German etc is not one that unduly bothers me. An avid Wagner fan I don't really mind not knowing the exact words ...it's the overall sound that the words make with the music that makes it so enjoyable for me. And one reason why I find operas not sung in their native language an anathema. ENO is a no-go area for me!

Having said that I do acknowledge that there is another level of enjoyment to have if one DID know the words as reading the surtitles at the ROH during the Ring was at times very moving. I do remember the odd tear in my eye at the end of Act 3 when Wotan bids his farewell to Brunhilde.

[Hornspieler]

..... An avid Wagner fan I don't really mind not knowing the exact words ...it's the overall sound that the words make with the music that makes it so enjoyable for me. And one reason why I find operas not sung in their native language an anathema. ENO is a no-go area for me!

.... I do remember the odd tear in my eye at the end of Act 3 when Wotan bids his farewell to Brunhilde.

More than can be said by me, when I bade my farewell to the Ring Cycle.

HS

[MrGongGong]

More than can be said by me, when I bade my farewell to the Ring Cycle.

HS

Surely as a hornplayer it's more of a Ker-ching moment ?
and
Oh goody time to dust down the weird tubas again ?

[Resurrection Man]

Surely as a hornplayer it's more of a Ker-ching moment ?
and
Oh goody time to dust down the weird tubas again ?

Which reminds me. Which version of the Ring will I listen to today?