Enough Schubert

[Mary Chambers]

My point is that I really do want to understand the lieder texts that are being sung. But not everyone will be sitting listening sat at a computer or other device with on-line content to be able to obtain the texts. For example many people will be in the car listening. I attend several Recorded Music Societies and probably half of the members do not have computers and are not on-line. Sorry but I cannot imagine too many R3 listeners sat ready and waiting for the next Schubert lieder to played with the translated texts in front of them. So most listeners will be hearing only the sound of the singers voice and the piano accompanyment but not understanding what is being sung.

I take your point, but I don't think I often listen to lieder with a computer in front of me! If I were in the habit of listening while driving, which I'm not, I would hope there'd be at least a summary of content by the announcer, or you could find out later. If it was a CD rather than radio, there would have been the opportunity to find out the meaning beforehand. At a recorded music group, surely the translated texts could be read aloud by whoever's running the group?

I do think people are rather lazy about this. I'm very grateful that I have at least a basic knowledge of French, Latin, German and Italian - indeed my choral singing life would have been difficult without it, and I wonder what will happen in choirs now that languages are taught so much less than they used to be. I find it frustrating when there is singing in languages I don't really know at all, like Russian or Czech, but then I find out roughly what the texts mean, even though it's hard to follow individual words. It just takes a bit of effort - not beyond most people, surely?

[DracoM]

Mary Chambers is right. The gap between the younger singers and the older in almost any choral ensemble is that in singing a Mass / Te Deum. Dies Irae etcetc, the conductor has to explain word by word what the text means to the younger ones who clearly have not the slightest idea of what they are singing.

[Mary Chambers]

My point is that I really do want to understand the lieder texts that are being sung. But not everyone will be sitting listening sat at a computer or other device with on-line content to be able to obtain the texts. For example many people will be in the car listening. I attend several Recorded Music Societies and probably half of the members do not have computers and are not on-line. Sorry but I cannot imagine too many R3 listeners sat ready and waiting for the next Schubert lieder to played with the translated texts in front of them. So most listeners will be hearing only the sound of the singers voice and the piano accompanyment but not understanding what is being sung.

I take your point, but I don't think I often listen to lieder with a computer in front of me! If I were in the habit of listening while driving, which I'm not, I would hope there'd be at least a summary of content by the announcer, or you could find out later. If it was a CD rather than radio, there would have been the opportunity to find out the meaning beforehand. At a recorded music group, surely the translated texts could be read aloud by whoever's running the group?

I do think people are rather lazy about this. I'm very grateful that I have at least a basic knowledge of French, Latin, German and Italian - indeed my choral singing life would have been difficult without it, and I wonder what will happen in choirs now that languages are taught so much less than they used to be. I find it frustrating when there is singing in languages I don't really know at all, like Russian or Czech, but then I find out roughly what the texts mean, even though it's hard to follow individual words. It just takes a bit of effort - not beyond most people, surely?

[Serial_Apologist]

If people sit down to listen to Winterreise, I would have thought they would first make an effort to get an idea of what it's all about. And a longer introduction is possible.

But that is surely analogous to cavatina's assertion that one needed to be conversant with a score prior to being able to claim, speak or write with critical authority on any work. Is it not enough that we expect announcers to give a synopsis or read out of the poem set in question? Or do we first have to do homework before properly qualifying for Radio 3 listenership?

[Pianorak]

. . . it's hard to follow individual words. . .

But isn't that the case whatever the language; soprano voices being the most difficult to make out. Or maybe that's just me?

[Norfolk Born]

[QUOTE=Pianorak;145927]But isn't that the case whatever the language; soprano voices being the most difficult to make out. Or maybe that's just me?[/QUOTE]
It's not just you - I often find it hard to make out what sopranos are singing, regardless of my degree of familiarity with the language in question.

[Mary Chambers]

But isn't that the case whatever the language; soprano voices being the most difficult to make out. Or maybe that's just me?

Yes, it can be, depending on the diction of the singer and the type of music. It isn't often a problem with lieder or similar songs in other languages. Opera can be difficult if you don't know the text.

Apologies for the double posting earlier. My computer decided to go offline for a while, and I kept hitting the Post button.

[Pianorak]

Yes, it can be, depending on the diction of the singer and the type of music.

Perhaps strange to say I find a non-native German singer like Flagstad easier to understand, but can't understand a word Schwarzkopf sings. That said I'm not into Lieder, Schumann's Dichterliebe being the one exception which never fails to move me.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Apologies for the double posting earlier. My computer decided to go offline for a while, and I kept hitting the Post button.

No apology necessary, Mary: some of us rather like exposition repeats!

[Mary Chambers]

Who's this singing Die Schöne Müllerin at the moment? Listings vary - James Gilchrist or Ben Johnson? Doesn't sound like Gilchrist to me. Very nice voice, whoever it is.

[Mary Chambers]

According to the announcement afterwards, it was James Gilchrist, with Anna Tilbrook. He managed to sound quite a lot younger than he actually is, in that case.

[french frank]

But that is surely analogous to cavatina's assertion that one needed to be conversant with a score prior to being able to claim, speak or write with critical authority on any work. Is it not enough that we expect announcers to give a synopsis or read out of the poem set in question? Or do we first have to do homework before properly qualifying for Radio 3 listenership?

I don't think finding out the rudiments of what a song cycle is about is analogous with studying a score beforehand, not least because many people would first have to learn how to read a score. I did start by saying "If people sit down to listen to Winterreise", presupposing that they have an interest in hearing the work, so I would also have supposed they would have found out something about it. And it's just about listening (and hopefully appreciating), not pronouncing with authority upon it. And, as you quote, I also suggested that a longer introduction (i.e. a longer introduction by the presenter than for a single song) was also possible. They don't have to borrow entire tomes from their local library.

[Quarky]

Who's this singing Die Schöne Müllerin at the moment?

An interesting thread, which has given me the opportunity to clarify my thoughts on this subject.

Mary Chambers is right of course. We can't expect an artist in addition to their artistic skills, to be an expert multilinguist. But even if they were, being an expert German speaker still may not help fathom out a piece of 18th Century poetry written in an Austrian dialect, current at that period. So a translation is necessary.

But that's not the end of the story as far as the listener is concerned. Consider the example of sitting in the stalls of the Wigmore Hall, just in time to have five minutes studying the programme notes, and we find that a lovely young Soprano is going to sing about violets. So when the piece is performed, do we gape at the young lady, try to discern the essence of the music, or try to follow the translation given exactly? Certainly I can't do all three at once.

Listening to lieder on the radio, we might know the piece, so problem solved. We might not know the piece, but have had the opportunity to look up the text on the internet before the performance, so that helps a bit. But the basic issue that all listeners are going to face is that they are probably not going to understand the German, and the simple combination of voice plus piano in a Classical music context is something that is not immediately pleasing to the ear (compared for example to Perry Como plus strings).

Therefore in my view the listener ought to have been exposed to enough German to feel happy or comfortable listening to the language, even if they can't understand more than the odd word. If the listener can speak German, and can perform the mental trick of thinking in the language, then this may offer an extra dimension in the Musical experience. But if the listener has rarely been exposed to the language, he's going quickly tire of the proceedings.

I don't think it helps to put these lieder in the context of a series of English middle class presenters. Acknowledging that Schubert might never have been discovered after his death without the English middle class, and certainly would not be played on the radio today without them, nevertheless I quickly grow tired of Hilary Finch et al. Adopting a more magazine -type approach and putting music into its Austrian - German context, might have been more interesting.

[Quarky]

Who's this singing Die Schöne Müllerin at the moment? .

Marianne and Michael?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19SN7FumlGY

[Norfolk Born]

Marianne and Michael?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19SN7FumlGY

Did they come second in a talent contest won by André Rieu?