Applause

[aeolium]

I don't think audience conventions at the time the music was written should be of any relevance to the conventions applicable today. We are not talking about HIPP audiences here and if we were there would be all kinds of different behaviour even in a single concert: inter-movement applause, chattering, in a Haydn or Mozart symphony, factional catcalls or riots in some Berlioz works, no inter-movement applause in some late C19 and C20 works. The behaviour of audiences in the late C18 was surely a reflection of the lowly status of composers compared with the predominantly aristocratic audience, which is completely different from the way those composers are viewed today. Was Haydn's loud chord in the Surprise symphony just a joke or an expression of irritation at the London audience: "now will you listen?"

The situation today is where we have a partial breakdown of the convention that grew up in the late C19 and C20 of no inter-movement applause, though it still operates to quite an extent - especially at chamber music concerts and solo recitals. I suggest that despite the defence of such applause by various commentators including some conductors it is quite rare for those who know the music and know about the convention to applaud between movements; those who are applauding are those who either do not know the music well, or do not know the convention (or both). Personally I don't much mind inter-movement applause in orchestral concerts but don't like it in chamber music or piano recitals - I really wouldn't want it after the first movement of Beethoven's op 127 quartet, for instance. Why couldn't it be left to the conductor/ensemble leader/recitalist to ask for an announcement to be made that they would appreciate it if there were no applause until the end of the work, if that's what they want (as you have announcements about turning mobile phones off)?

[Bryn]

I have attended quite a few concerts/recitals where a request to hold back on any applause until the end has indeed been made by the conductor or some other participating musician. That seems fair enough to me. On other occasions it has been made clear that applause was welcomed during the hiatus between movements.

[DublinJimbo]

I don't think audience conventions at the time the music was written should be of any relevance to the conventions applicable today.

Well said.

I suggest that despite the defence of such applause by various commentators including some conductors it is quite rare for those who know the music and know about the convention to applaud between movements; those who are applauding are those who either do not know the music well, or do not know the convention (or both).

Well said again.

[Bryn]

Well said.



Well said again.

Not at all. Many of those applauding know the convention and find it distastefully stuff-shirt.

[MrGongGong]

This does raise the question of what one goes to hear live music for ?

Is it to immerse oneself in the familiar ? To sing along in the choruses ?
so to KNOW when it has ended and to demonstrate one's superiority by being the first to applaud ?
or
To experience something new , something you don't know ?
in this case is one supposed to bow to the "superior" knowledge of other members of the audience ? or respond to what you hear ?

What some of us find objectionable about the way in which some people approach this in relation to the Proms, is the way in which SOME (note SOME not ALL !!!) self appointed "prommers" seem to think that they OWN the music, that it belongs to them and that they have to "instruct" the uninitiated in how to behave ............ which is , of course, nonsense !

[amateur51]

Why couldn't it be left to the conductor/ensemble leader/recitalist to ask for an announcement to be made that they would appreciate it if there were no applause until the end of the work, if that's what they want (as you have announcements about turning mobile phones off)?

Sir Simon Rattle did just this for the second half of the Prom that he performed with the BPO in September 2010, comprising the orchestral pieces by Schoenberg/Berg/Webern.

The audience complied completely and the result was a staggeringly beautiful performance, not least I suspect because the injuction caused the audience to listen & concentrate that bit harder.

[cloughie]

Unless applause is written into the score it should not be there. Bryn - I notice you mention Sir Roger - he's not always right about absolutely everything and if he recommends applause at the end of movements in Elgar 1, then that is unacceptable.

[Bryn]

Unless applause is written into the score it should not be there. Bryn - I notice you mention Sir Roger - he's not always right about absolutely everything and if he recommends applause at the end of movements in Elgar 1, then that is unacceptable.

I can't say I have seen applause written many a score (Stockhausen's Momente springs to mind ), even at the end. I don't think RN actually recommends applause between the end of the first movement and the start of the Allegro molto (indeed he effectively gets the orchestra to play the second movement attacca. I don't have the score to hand so am not sure whether it is so marked, but it works for me. Of course, if members of the audience do applaud at that point he would most likely graciously accept the situation, then proceed.

[JFLL]

I'm sceptical that (a minority of) people have really decided to end the twentieth-century no-clapping-between-movements convention, in the interests of greater self-expression, communal feeling, etc. I suspect it still comes mainly from (a) people who are new to classical concerts and aren't aware of the convention, and (b) those who think the piece has finished when it hasn't (the two groups overlap, of course). Once the clapping has started, others might join in to save the clappers' 'embarrassment'. (Very British, saving others' embarrassment.)

However, clapping between movements seems to have spread beyond the proms. A few weeks ago R3 relayed an LPO concert with Jurowski, with Joshu Bell playing the Brahms Violin Concerto, where there was quite substantial applause after the first movement. I didn't hear the rest of the concert as I had to go out. It's not as though it was a 'popular' concert - the other works were Mozart’s 32nd, Zemlinsky’s Psalm 23 and Szymanowski’s 3rd. I was a bit surprised and, being in the traditionalist camp here, not over-delighted. For me, pauses between movements are times for recovery and reflection, but not a break in concentration, and relative silence fills the bill nicely. Was the celebrity factor at work here? (That bloke who went busking in New York, played Bach's unaccompanied partitas and got a few measly dimes …)

[Bryn]

Applause also followed the first movement of the recent broadcast performance of Mahler's 7th (BBCSO, JB). Surely there can be very, very few who would expect a Mahler symphony, even one they were not familiar with, to end after just one movement? I reckon those who applauded were just carried away with the quality of the performance. Again, another recent broadcast, this time of Messiaen's Turangalîla-Symphonie, had applause between the 5th and 6th movements. Nowt wrong with that, especially as the compose sanctioned performance of individual movements, or particular selected sequences of them.

[Panjandrum]

This does raise the question of what one goes to hear live music for ?

Is it to immerse oneself in the familiar ? To sing along in the choruses ?
so to KNOW when it has ended and to demonstrate one's superiority by being the first to applaud ?
or
To experience something new , something you don't know ?
in this case is one supposed to bow to the "superior" knowledge of other members of the audience ? or respond to what you hear ?

What some of us find objectionable about the way in which some people approach this in relation to the Proms, is the way in which SOME (note SOME not ALL !!!) self appointed "prommers" seem to think that they OWN the music, that it belongs to them and that they have to "instruct" the uninitiated in how to behave ............ which is , of course, nonsense !

Look, the no-applause convention hasn't just come about in order to allow a certain faction the opportunity to exercise a putative control over other people's enjoyment; rather, it is because if one is immersed in a piece of music of emotional or intellectual depth, until that piece has concluded applause, or other extraneous noises are unwelcome; they break the spell.

If you must applaud between movements, do it with one hand eh?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I can't say I have seen applause written many a score (Stockhausen's Momente springs to mind ), even at the end. I don't think RN actually recommends applause between the end of the first movement and the start of the Allegro molto (indeed he effectively gets the orchestra to play the second movement attacca. I don't have the score to hand so am not sure whether it is so marked, but it works for me. Of course, if members of the audience do applaud at that point he would most likely graciously accept the situation, then proceed.

I do have the score and it isn't marked "attacca". The final bar of the first movement ends with a pause on the minim rest. I think the reference to RN in this instance was his gesture to the audience to applaud between movements in the Elgar. A bit artificial really, as the 1st & 3rd movements ened very quietly and the middle movements are linked.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Why couldn't it be left to the conductor/ensemble leader/recitalist to ask for an announcement to be made that they would appreciate it if there were no applause until the end of the work,

It's an interesting idea, but the conductor really shouldn't have to do this.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Hurrah for the likes of Sir Roger Norrington who not only accept but even encourage the expression of appreciation for their fellow musicians' work between separate movements of a multi-movement work.

No, the knight in question just wants the applause for himself.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Some find it fashionable to ape the behaviour of 18th century audiences, others find it fashionable to emulate a school detention session until the bell rings.

I would rather compare the practice with school dinners. There are those whe eat politely and those who chuck food around because they feel the urge to express themselves in a challenging way.