Rach 2 and 3

[Pabmusic]

It's not a simple question of the piano being out of tune 'with itself'... I was playing on that recording in the old ( and much missed) Kingsway Halll, and remember it well.
The piano, if you listen closely, is tuned to EXACTLY A=440 hz ( those were the days) but during the early 1970s there was a tendency for the LSO's overall pitch to 'creep up' higher than that, despite the best efforts of the superlative 1st oboe, Roger Lord.
So, for much of the time, some of the woodwind ( not the oboes!) and strings are playing at about A=441hz .
I was trying to 'stay with' Roger Lord, but now, 40-odd years later, my horn solos with the orchestra do sound a tad flat, but, dare I say it,quite well in tune with the piano in those few moments when the music turns into a 'piano/ horn' duet. ...

I don't think this was (or is) unique to the LSO. A real worry for any conductor, because of pitch, is the Beethoven Emperor Concerto. You may have spent ages ensuring the tuning is right for the first three chords, but after the pianos cadenzas, it rests for nearly 100 bars as the orchestra plays the march. During this, the pitch of the strings and woodwind rises slightly, so that when the piano enters again with a full E-flat chord, it will actually seem flat. You have to encourage the woodwind to play flat over the last few bars if you want to avoid the piano sounding flat and dull. Very dangerous and difficult!

The key doesn't help - strings especially are not too comfortable in flat keys and often drift towards a sharper one.

[salymap]

"Quote:
Any involvement, Mr. Waldhorn?Unquote"

No, sorry, no involvement there... although I was very active as a freelance player in London during the 1970s-1990s, the RPO and the BBCSO were the only two orchestras that never invited me to play with them.
A friendly 'mole' in both those orchestras found out - and reported to me - that those orchestras considered my 'playing style' to be 'too eccentric'...

How very dare they.

[mercia]

strings especially are not too comfortable in flat keys and often drift towards a sharper one.

that's interesting, I never knew that

not sure I understand why they would be more likely to drift away from D flat major than C sharp major (for example)

[MrGongGong]

that's interesting, I never knew that

not sure I understand why they would be more likely to drift away from D flat major than C sharp major (for example)

because they aren't the same key maybe ?
I'm forever disabusing students of these things ...............
I'm not a string player but the ergonomics and tuning of string instruments mean that players are more comfortable in "sharp" keys , try giving them a whole tone scale to play and see the sweat

[mercia]

I'm still not clear of the reason though

are they less comfortable in C major than B sharp major ?

[Pabmusic]

that's interesting, I never knew that

not sure I understand why they would be more likely to drift away from D flat major than C sharp major (for example)

[Putting on anorak}

It's largely to do with open strings (which of course are tuned in advance and do not rely on finger pressure to create the pitch. Having the open stings tuned to G-D-A-E (for violins) means that all four open strings are available as part of the scale only in F major on the 'flat' side, where they are the second, third, sixth and seventh degrees. B-flat allows two (the third and sixth) open strings and A-flat just one (the seventh - perhaps not very useful). On the sharp side, even B (five sharps) allows you one open string, and that on a relatively important note, E, the fourth of the scale. Simply put, the flatter the key, the nearer you approach the point where you lose any of the points of pitch reference that open strings give.

This natural string bias towards sharp keys (G, D. A, and E especially) partly explains the huge amount of classical orchestral works in these keys, rather than flat ones. Where there are pieces in flat keys, they are most commonly in F, B-flat or E-flat. (The availability or otherwise of horn and trumpet crooks is also an important factor, but we're talking about strings here.)

There is also a different quality to strings playing in keys with three or more flats, because of the absence of 'brighter' open-string sounds, and composers have exploited this. Elgar's First Symphony is said to be in A-flat (pretty well the only one; certainly the first that I know of), but it really contrasts A-flat (the 'big tune') with D (the nervous energy sections). Part of the contrast we hear is due to the 'stopped' sound of the strings in A-flat against the 'open' quality of the sharper keys.

This has been a (possibly over-) long explanation, and it still doesn't answer your specific point. Strings playing on the 'flat' side have few open strings as fixed points, the pitch of most notes they play being controlled by their fingers, which are often falling in less-well-used patterns. The tendency is for the fingers to fall back nearer to the usual patterns, and for the pitch to rise a little. Of course, there's a huge difference here between professionals, who compensate for this, and many amateurs, who forget. C-sharp major is pretty well unknown in orchestral music. I can't think of one example. D-flat is not very common either (there's a symphony by Robert Farnon, I think) and it's very important in the last movement of Mahler's 9th. Tchaikovsky's 1st piano concerto is in B-flat minor, of course. as is Walton's 1st Symphony. I suspect that composers will usually have used D-flat instead of C-sharp because it has fewer accidentals. But it's still pretty rare.

[Takes off anorak]

[mercia]

ah, thanks for that Mr pab. I understand all of that. Very well explained.

whilst works may not often be in those flatter keys, it would be true to say they often go through them, during the course of a movement, wouldn't it? But I fully understand what you're saying. I shall listen more attentively henceforth.

Thanks. [wear that anorak with pride ! ]

[Pabmusic]

ah, thanks for that Mr pab. I understand all of that. Very well explained.

whilst works may not often be in those flatter keys, it would be true to say they often go through them, during the course of a movement, wouldn't it? But I fully understand what you're saying. I shall listen more attentively henceforth.

Thanks.

Oh yes, all keys are in theory used, but C-flat and C-sharp both have decent alternatives to hand, and I think it would be a rather pedantic composer who insisted on seven accidentals when he could use five. But there'll be some examples somewhere, I suppose.

[mercia]

[solo] pianists are expected to play in all sorts of obscure keys, perhaps string players have an easier time.

I hope I don't regret saying that.

[Pabmusic]

[solo] pianists are expected to play in all sorts of obscure keys, perhaps string players have an easier time.

I hope I don't regret saying that.

I'm sure you will! But even with the piano, there are some keys that fall more comfortably under the fingers, aren't there?

[Tony Halstead]

It comes as a surprise to some musicians who aren't pianists that e.g. B major is one of the easiest keys for the fingers whereas C major is quite tricky!

[MrGongGong]

It comes as a surprise to some musicians who aren't pianists that e.g. B major is one of the easiest keys for the fingers whereas C major is quite tricky!

Absolutely one only needs to look at your hand ! Unless , of course ,you have alien thumbs

[Pabmusic]

It comes as a surprise to some musicians who aren't pianists that e.g. B major is one of the easiest keys for the fingers whereas C major is quite tricky!

Likewise Scriabin, a pianist who had never composed anything for orchestra, chose F-sharp major for his piano concerto! Great for the piano, one of the worst for any orchestra!

[Tony Halstead]

This is surprising - as an occasional pianist myself, I have never found F# to be at all easy ( you can't begin the scale with the thumb - unless you are Russian-trained) compared to, say, B major, A major or E major.

[Pabmusic]

This is surprising - as an occasional pianist myself, I have never found F# to be at all easy ( you can't begin the scale with the thumb - unless you are Russian-trained) compared to, say, B major, A major or E major.

I'm no pianist, Waldhorn, so I'm not an expert. I'd always assumed that the truly unusual key (for orchestra) was because of its relative comfort for the pianist. Otherwise it's just perverse (which is a pity since it's quite a nice work).