Rach 2 and 3

[Pianorak]

Starting new thread so as not to upset the natives.

. . .talking of out of tune pianos, why not try Ashkenazy and Previn in the Rachmaninov concerto. I think they must of borrowed thr local pub upright to record that on .

I dimly remember listening to it and decided not to buy it. Obviously my loss, but the combination of Ashkenazy and Previn never worked for me. Ashkenazy recorded the Rach 2 and 3 with Kondrashin/Moscow PO and Fistoulari/LSO respectively both of which I think outstanding.

[gradus]

I particularly like the Rach 3 with Askenazy/Previn but don't rememeber a poor piano sound - must listen again.
It is surprising how often recorded pianos sound out of tune/poorly prepared - although in the latter category perhaps prepared to suit the player's wishes.
I've been enjoying the Dino Ciani reissues on Brilliant Classics (Weber Sonatas, Debussy Preludes, Schumann Novelettes) but on one or two tracks the piano is out of tune in the upper octaves, seems odd that the original DGG producer let it go but on reflection the performance are so terrific that it really doesn't matter that much.

[Nick Armstrong]

I particularly like the Rach 3 with Askenazy/Previn but don't rememeber a poor piano sound - must listen again.
It is surprising how often recorded pianos sound out of tune/poorly prepared - although in the latter category perhaps prepared to suit the player's wishes.
I've been enjoying the Dino Ciani reissues on Brilliant Classics (Weber Sonatas, Debussy Preludes, Schumann Novelettes) but on one or two tracks the piano is out of tune in the upper octaves, seems odd that the original DGG producer let it go but on reflection the performance are so terrific that it really doesn't matter that much.

I don't know the Ashkenazy / Previns - I have the readings with Haitink and the Concertgebouw. What do we think of those? I confess I haven't re-listened to them for ages, there are several recordings of no. 3 I prefer and no. 2 I don't listen to very much.

Dino Ciani - funny you mention him, I just got that box set out again, as I've been listening to Stephen Plaistow's wonderful BAL survey of Schumann piano music again - he raves about the quality of Ciani's 'Noveletten' and I want to listen to them again Never noticed the out of tune piano.

I am often amazed how wrong the recordings of pianos sound: most notable lately, Joanna MacGregor's 'Goldberg' variations and Previn's Gershwin concerto with Kostelanetz. Horrible, to my ears! (One of the best of all time for me is the later Decca digital recording of Alicia Dellarocha in 'Iberia')

[Ferretfancy]

I wouldn't want to be without Byron Janis in Rachmaninov 1 & 3 with the Moscow PO and Kondrashin, recorded in the Great Hall of the Conservatory. This was the first time that an American company ( Mercury) had been permitted to record in the Soviet Union. These are landmark versions, and not just because of the circumstance of the locale.

[Petrushka]

I had the Ashkenazy/Kondrashin on an old Decca Jubilee LP and wonderful though it is, I've never got round to getting it on CD. I do, however, have both the Previn and the Haitink sets.

Regarding out of tune pianos: are we seriously saying that, in this case, Ashkenazy, Previn, the LSO, the recording producer and engineer all failed to spot that the piano was out of tune???

I find that hard to believe.

[Tony Halstead]

It's not a simple question of the piano being out of tune 'with itself'... I was playing on that recording in the old ( and much missed) Kingsway Halll, and remember it well.
The piano, if you listen closely, is tuned to EXACTLY A=440 hz ( those were the days) but during the early 1970s there was a tendency for the LSO's overall pitch to 'creep up' higher than that, despite the best efforts of the superlative 1st oboe, Roger Lord.
So, for much of the time, some of the woodwind ( not the oboes!) and strings are playing at about A=441hz .
I was trying to 'stay with' Roger Lord, but now, 40-odd years later, my horn solos with the orchestra do sound a tad flat, but, dare I say it,quite well in tune with the piano in those few moments when the music turns into a 'piano/ horn' duet. ...

[Petrushka]

It's not a simple question of the piano being out of tune 'with itself'... I was playing on that recording in the old ( and much missed) Kingsway Halll, and remember it well.
The piano, if you listen closely, is tuned to EXACTLY A=440 hz ( those were the days) but during the early 1970s there was a tendency for the LSO's overall pitch to 'creep up' higher then that, despite the best efforts of the superlative 1st oboe, Roger Lord.
So, for much of the time the woodwind and strings are playing at about A=441hz .
I was trying to 'stay with' Roger Lord, but now, 40-odd years later, my horn solos with the orchestra do sound a tad flat, but, dare I say it,quite well in tune with the piano in those few moments when the music turns into a 'piano/ horn' duet. ...

Many thanks for the insight into those sessions . I shall listen to the recordings with renewed interest.

[amateur51]

It's not a simple question of the piano being out of tune 'with itself'... I was playing on that recording in the old ( and much missed) Kingsway Halll, and remember it well.
The piano, if you listen closely, is tuned to EXACTLY A=440 hz ( those were the days) but during the early 1970s there was a tendency for the LSO's overall pitch to 'creep up' higher than that, despite the best efforts of the superlative 1st oboe, Roger Lord.
So, for much of the time, some of the woodwind ( not the oboes!) and strings are playing at about A=441hz .
I was trying to 'stay with' Roger Lord, but now, 40-odd years later, my horn solos with the orchestra do sound a tad flat, but, dare I say it,quite well in tune with the piano in those few moments when the music turns into a 'piano/ horn' duet. ...

Fascinating insights, Waldhorn - many thanks

[Nick Armstrong]

It's not a simple question of the piano being out of tune 'with itself'... I was playing on that recording in the old ( and much missed) Kingsway Halll, and remember it well.
The piano, if you listen closely, is tuned to EXACTLY A=440 hz ( those were the days) but during the early 1970s there was a tendency for the LSO's overall pitch to 'creep up' higher than that, despite the best efforts of the superlative 1st oboe, Roger Lord.
So, for much of the time, some of the woodwind ( not the oboes!) and strings are playing at about A=441hz .
I was trying to 'stay with' Roger Lord, but now, 40-odd years later, my horn solos with the orchestra do sound a tad flat, but, dare I say it,quite well in tune with the piano in those few moments when the music turns into a 'piano/ horn' duet. ...

Golly, horse's-mouth stuff, waldhorn!!! Really fascinating

[amateur51]

Golly, horse's-mouth stuff, waldhorn!!! Really fascinating

Horse's embouchure, surely Caliban?

[Nick Armstrong]

Horse's embouchure, surely Caliban?

Who are you calling a horse's embouchure??!?!

You come outside and say that!!!!

[jayne lee wilson]

Excellent insights Waldhorn!

There's a famous example of pitch mismatch in Pretre's original recording in Paris of the Poulenc Organ Concerto, where the violins are sharp against the organ. Andrew Rose recently remastered it for a Pristine download using pitch-correction software ("Capstan") and very wonderful the 1961 recording now sounds on its first digital release.

I remain very fond of the old Reader's Digest issues, latterly on excellent-sounding Chesky CDs, of Earl Wild and Jascha Horenstein with the RPO doing the Rachmaninov Concertos, including a fabulous high-speed and high-drama Paganini Rhapsody. The production/engineering team was the Gerhardt/Wilkinson one, so...

Any involvement, Mr. Waldhorn?

It's not a simple question of the piano being out of tune 'with itself'... I was playing on that recording in the old ( and much missed) Kingsway Halll, and remember it well.
The piano, if you listen closely, is tuned to EXACTLY A=440 hz ( those were the days) but during the early 1970s there was a tendency for the LSO's overall pitch to 'creep up' higher than that, despite the best efforts of the superlative 1st oboe, Roger Lord.
So, for much of the time, some of the woodwind ( not the oboes!) and strings are playing at about A=441hz .
I was trying to 'stay with' Roger Lord, but now, 40-odd years later, my horn solos with the orchestra do sound a tad flat, but, dare I say it,quite well in tune with the piano in those few moments when the music turns into a 'piano/ horn' duet. ...

[Tony Halstead]

"Quote:
Any involvement, Mr. Waldhorn?Unquote"

No, sorry, no involvement there... although I was very active as a freelance player in London during the 1970s-1990s, the RPO and the BBCSO were the only two orchestras that never invited me to play with them.
A friendly 'mole' in both those orchestras found out - and reported to me - that those orchestras considered my 'playing style' to be 'too eccentric'...

[Parry1912]

There's a famous example of pitch mismatch in Pretre's original recording in Paris of the Poulenc Organ Concerto, where the violins are sharp against the organ ... and very wonderful the 1961 recording now sounds on its first digital release.

Is this a different performance to this one, Jayne? http://www.emiclassics.com/grocrelea....php?rid=20667

[jayne lee wilson]

The more I look into Pristine's claim about a first re-release, the more I'm beginning to wonder if there hasn't been some historical confusion here.

You see, on the EMI GROC the orchestra is listed as the Orchestre de la Societe des Concerts du Conservatoire - latterly the Orchestre de Paris. On the Pristine download (and on the original LPs - also I now find on a 1987 CD release...!) the listing is the French National Radio & TV Orchestra - latterly the French National Orchestra. But the organist is Durufle on the organ of the Church of Saint-Etienne on both... and they are both dated 1961! Shame I can't find an authoritative discography for Pretre.

Two recordings in the same year with 2 different orchestras? Or an admin mishap somewhere in the intervening 50 years?

Is this a different performance to this one, Jayne? http://www.emiclassics.com/grocrelea....php?rid=20667