The five masterpieces that changed the course of musical history

[Auferstehen2]

I assume the question means that works that followed it, would have been written differently by those composers, had the Eroica not been written.

How, please?

Mario

Oi, you high-browed bunch! What about my question please? Could someone help guide a poor, misdirected soul please? (And I'd better get a decent answer rather than "brave risks", "adventurous new harmonies", "innovative use of etc".... So there!)

Thank you!

Mario

[rauschwerk]

Oi, you high-browed bunch! What about my question please? Could someone help guide a poor, misdirected soul please? (And I'd better get a decent answer rather than "brave risks", "adventurous new harmonies", "innovative use of etc".... So there!)

Thank you!

Mario

See inter alia my feeble attempt (#127) and the following post.

[MrGongGong]

Oi, you high-browed bunch! What about my question please? Could someone help guide a poor, misdirected soul please? (And I'd better get a decent answer rather than "brave risks", "adventurous new harmonies", "innovative use of etc".... So there!)

Thank you!

Mario

Ok

IMV (and its a long time since I did my music degree !) what is most significant about the Eroica is the way that it stretches and subverts the symphonic form. The problem with listening to it now is that is has become another "piece of classical music", meaning that if the ONLY things you had ever heard was the music that preceded it then one would easily become "lost" when listening.

[Auferstehen2]

Thank you very much Mr GG. This is excellent, and for me at any rate, makes a lot of sense.

Call me unadventurous, but it still moves me I'm afraid. Is there any hope for me? There must be some special counselling group set up just for people like me!

Seriously, there is evidence on these boards that I do try to stretch my musical sphere so to speak, but it is difficult to wrench away from pieces which are, erm, special.

Thanks again,

Mario

[Roehre]

I don't actually think that initially the Eroica made much of an impact on the contemporary symphonic scene of the time. As some of you may have noticed on the 'What are you listening to now?' thread, I'm going through the post the year 1799, symphonies in my collection. I have reached 1830 and it has been a fascinating experience listening chronologically and hearing the developments and influences. The Beethoven symphony that seems to have made the most impact, as least until around 1820 appears to be the 2nd. Aspects of the Beethoven of the Eroica do appear in the works of composers such as his pupil Ferdinand Ries, but its large scale structure, especially in the 1st movement seems not to have been adopted until much later into the 19th century. Schubert 8 and Bomtempo 2 are the first two really large scale symphonic 1st movements (both date from the early 1820's) to appear from composers other than Beethoven and even after this the large scale 1st movements and large scale symphonies over 35 minutes in duration aren't as common as perhaps they might have been. It is the Beethoven Scherzo that seems to have been the most readily adopted by his contemporaries.

SC, That's a nice observation.

So, it looks like Beethoven and the Eroica were more talked about (also in conversations with B, btw, see the Konversationshefte from especially 1820/'21) than actually followed as example/inspiration (apart from people like Ries and Czerny).
That the 2nd was apparently more influential means, that indirectly Mozart's Prague (no.38 KV504) was a seminal work.
We shouldn't overlook the fact that that work's first mvt (with some 18 minutes) is the longest (with repeats that is) before the Eroica's 1st mvt, as well as its influence on Beethoven especially in his 2nd's 2nd mvt, the larghetto.

The more remarkable is this supposed influence of the 2nd as at the end of the century, by the time Beethoven's status as THE heroic artist had fullgrown, this work, let alone his 1st, was considered as a less interesting work, basically only worth to be performed to show how much progress Beethoven had made during his career as symphonist .

SC's observation regarding the Eroica's supposed (non-)influence means also, that already in earlier years of the 19th century already modern music was talked about, but not performed (contrary to the situation up to and including most of
Mozart's time, in which nearly all performed music was contemporary) . Nothing new under the sun, I'm afraid.

[3rd Viennese School]

“Mozart's Prague (no.38 KV504) was a seminal work.
We shouldn't overlook the fact that that work's first mvt (with some 18 minutes) is the longest (with repeats that is) “


Does it count as the longest ? It has a double bar repeat, and therefore is 9 minutes worth of music. (Beethoven 3 mvt 1 repeats about 3 mins of music).

This double bar repeat of Mozart 38 exists- I’ve seen it in a score and seen it on a CD lasting 18 minutes- but I have never heard the repeat of the second half in performance!

As for on-topic – will rough something out and get back to you.

3VS

[Nick Armstrong]

I think its time to start a new thread, as this one's gone completely off-topic since my last posting.

But I've found the tangents quite fascinating, without being able to add anything myself. Nothing wrong with absorbing digressions!

I also enjoyed the concept of Monsieur Vinteuil wearing an anorak. I dare say he has never deigned to wear such a garment.

[vinteuil]

I dare say he has never deigned to wear such a garment.

"Deign" ... such a good verb. I always hoped that the Vinteuil motto could be that of the Rohans -

Roi ne puis
Prince ne daigne
Vinteuil suis