The five masterpieces that changed the course of musical history

[Pabmusic]

The significance of a couple of Hertz is greatly overstated. A temperature change of 1.3 deg. C is enough to cause the pitch of a wind instrument to vary by this much. Even if we suppose that the oboist has tuned to a fork in the green room, the given A might change by at least 2 Hz as soon as he/she walks on to the platform! The harp pitch, on the other hand, is far less sensitive to temperature.

I can vouch for this. After the initial chord of the Emperor Concerto, the strings rest while the pianist plays cadenzas. When the strings enter with the march tune (in E flat - not a kind one for strings) it's 10-to-1 that their pitch will have risen by a few hertz. The piano, of course, hasn't altered at all. It's quite a task for the conductor to make the strings 'think' flat.

[vinteuil]

... for those interested in the question of Bach's keyboard temperament I can much recommend as a good starting point John Barnes's influential essay "Bach's Keyboard Temperament: Internal Evidence from the Well-Tempered Clavier" [Early Music vol 7 no 2, April 1979 pp 236-249]. He shows how Bach 'uses' the characteristics of the different keys in a temperament such as Werckmeister III, through (among other things) an extensive analysis of the number of times Bach uses major thirds (more numerous and more prominent in preludes whose key signatures have few accidentals, and less numerous and less prominent in preludes in keys having many accidentals). The particular astringency or serenity of different chords in different keys is shown to have a musical significance which is lost if the works are played in equal temperament.

[rauschwerk]

This thread is heading dangerously in the direction of Anorakville. I agree with Mr GongGong that, highly significant though the Symphonie Fantastique and the Unfinished are, it is the Eroica which is the seminal work of the early 19th century.

[cloughie]

This thread is heading dangerously in the direction of Anorakville. I agree with Mr GongGong that, highly significant though the Symphonie Fantastique and the Unfinished are, it is the Eroica which is the seminal work of the early 19th century.

Agreed the Eroica set the scene for the big symphony but Berlioz added a dimension maybe his was the first 'concept album' with Lelio the less successful SF2!

[Roehre]

I agree with Mr GongGong that, highly significant though the Symphonie Fantastique and the Unfinished are, it is the Eroica which is the seminal work of the early 19th century.

I agree. Without any doubt the Eroica changed music history from the very moment of its premiere.
Schubert's Unfinished and C-major and Berlioz's orchestral works in general obviously had an imprint on music history as well, but not immediately. The same applies obviously to the Mahler symphonies, taking in account how influential these works later were. In that sense these works did not change music history as intended in this thread IMO.

[Pabmusic]

Without any doubt the Eroica changed music history from the very moment of its premiere.

Did it really? In what way? Its scale? (Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the proposition. I'd just like to know why you are so very sure, and what or whom it influenced immediately.)

[rauschwerk]

Did it really? In what way? Its scale? (Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the proposition. I'd just like to know why you are so very sure, and what or whom it influenced immediately.)

Its unprecedented scale, which allows greater emotional range and intensity than in any previous symphony. Even Beethoven's contemporaries found in this piece both a successor to the Classical symphonies of Haydn and Mozart and a musical companion to the novels of Jean Paul Richter, the early Romanticist. The completely novel (and still, I think, unique) form of the finale.

[Roehre]

Did it really? In what way? Its scale? (Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the proposition. I'd just like to know why you are so very sure, and what or whom it influenced immediately.)

As Haydn remarked, the world wasn't the same anymore after this work. That was recognized as such at that very moment, just as with the premiere of the Sacre some 110 years later. It permeated Europe quicker than other works (by Beethoven or any other composer for that matter) and more periodicals wrote about the event (the first public performance that is, not the privately held premiere) than about any similar one before.
Senner's Critical Reception (Nebraska University, at the present 2 vols, a 3rd forthcoming) is a good introduction to how contemporaries looked at Beethoven's works.

[MrGongGong]

This thread is heading dangerously in the direction of Anorakville.

Surely not a discussion of music as a sonic phenomena ??? Something that is rare in these parts methinks

[NickWraight]

The first masterpiece was surely when homoerectus (or whomever) blew through the first bone flute; hit a stretched animal skin; whistled or sang? The rest is subjective! Mind you perhaps I'm missing the point...?!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

the whole "keys having a character" (D minor being the saddest etc

I've always thought this is doubtful.
D major is only regarded as a bright, happy key because trumpets could be used in this key in baroque times.

However, my doubts start to evaporate when I consider that I like very little music in B flat. It neary always sounds heavy and dull. Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto is a notable exception.

[MrGongGong]

I've always thought this is doubtful.
D major is only regarded as a bright, happy key because trumpets could be used in this key in baroque times.

However, my doubts start to evaporate when I consider that I like very little music in B flat. It neary always sounds heavy and dull. Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto is a notable exception.

I almost fell out with one of my oldest friends about this
My view is that we have the remains of key difference , a bit like having an appendix !
when I played the horn I would have said that Bb, F, Eb were solid keys and something like F# was distant and remote etc but that's really got more to do with the ergonomics of playing than anything to do with the actual keys themselves. However, in the Raga system there really is a difference which gives us an inkling of what we lost when adopting equal temperament , which is not to say that we didn't gain as well.

[Suffolkcoastal]

As Haydn remarked, the world wasn't the same anymore after this work. That was recognized as such at that very moment, just as with the premiere of the Sacre some 110 years later. It permeated Europe quicker than other works (by Beethoven or any other composer for that matter) and more periodicals wrote about the event (the first public performance that is, not the privately held premiere) than about any similar one before.
Senner's Critical Reception (Nebraska University, at the present 2 vols, a 3rd forthcoming) is a good introduction to how contemporaries looked at Beethoven's works.

I don't actually think that initially the Eroica made much of an impact on the contemporary symphonic scene of the time. As some of you may have noticed on the 'What are you listening to now?' thread, I'm going through the post the year 1799, symphonies in my collection. I have reached 1830 and it has been a fascinating experience listening chronologically and hearing the developments and influences. The Beethoven symphony that seems to have made the most impact, as least until around 1820 appears to be the 2nd. Aspects of the Beethoven of the Eroica do appear in the works of composers such as his pupil Ferdinand Ries, but its large scale structure, especially in the 1st movement seems not to have been adopted until much later into the 19th century. Schubert 8 and Bomtempo 2 are the first two really large scale symphonic 1st movements (both date from the early 1820's) to appear from composers other than Beethoven and even after this the large scale 1st movements and large scale symphonies over 35 minutes in duration aren't as common as perhaps they might have been. It is the Beethoven Scherzo that seems to have been the most readily adopted by his contemporaries.

[Pabmusic]

I almost fell out with one of my oldest friends about this
My view is that we have the remains of key difference , a bit like having an appendix !
when I played the horn I would have said that Bb, F, Eb were solid keys and something like F# was distant and remote etc but that's really got more to do with the ergonomics of playing than anything to do with the actual keys themselves. However, in the Raga system there really is a difference which gives us an inkling of what we lost when adopting equal temperament , which is not to say that we didn't gain as well.

Certain composers were open about associating keys with moods or colours - Rimsky-Korsakov, Scriabin and more - though they didn't always choose the same moods or colours. For what it's worth, I tend to associate some keys with colours. I think it more likely that this is later rationalisation arising from associations with known pieces in these keys, rather than anything else. But they've been with me unchanged since I was at school, and they seem 'real' enough, psychologically. My list is:

A major = red
D major = green
E major = yellow
E flat major = purple
A flat major and B flat major = shades of blue
F major = blue-grey
B minor = navy blue or black
C minor=white
D flat major = grey-green
B flat minor = dark grey
E minor = red-brown

I can't settle on anything for C major, or any other minor keys.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I almost fell out with one of my oldest friends about this
My view is that we have the remains of key difference , a bit like having an appendix !
when I played the horn I would have said that Bb, F, Eb were solid keys and something like F# was distant and remote etc but that's really got more to do with the ergonomics of playing than anything to do with the actual keys themselves. However, in the Raga system there really is a difference which gives us an inkling of what we lost when adopting equal temperament , which is not to say that we didn't gain as well.

I couldn't agree more strongly. Things are rarely black and white.

Certain composers were open about associating keys with moods or colours - Rimsky-Korsakov, Scriabin and more...

To lower the tone a little, a friend of mine at university allocated keys (major and minor) to his ex-girlfriends.