The five masterpieces that changed the course of musical history

[MrGongGong]

J S Bach: das Wohltemperierte Clavier Written specifically to demonstrate the new equal temperament; without equal temperament we could have had no classical, romantic, expressionist or dodecaphonic music (and a lot more besides)

I'm not sure about this assumption
According to many musicologists this isn't true at all

for example see
How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony : (And Why You Should Care) : Ross W Duffin

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/nov/22/how-equal-temperamnt-ruined-harmony

A most significant work none the less

[Bryn]

I'm not sure about this assumption
According to many musicologists this isn't true at all

for example see
How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony : (And Why You Should Care) : Ross W Duffin

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/nov/22/how-equal-temperamnt-ruined-harmony

A most significant work none the less

Indeed, the work was written expressly for well-temperament, not equal temperament.

See Bradley Lehman, for instance.

[french frank]

I'm not sure about this assumption
According to many musicologists this isn't true at all

for example see
How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony : (And Why You Should Care) : Ross W Duffin

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/nov/22/how-equal-temperamnt-ruined-harmony

A most significant work none the less

I don't quite understand how that changes the significance of TWTC in making music 'sound different' thereafter?

[Pabmusic]

I'm not sure about this assumption
According to many musicologists this isn't true at all

for example see
How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony : (And Why You Should Care) : Ross W Duffin

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/nov/22/how-equal-temperamnt-ruined-harmony

A most significant work none the less

I know this book, and its thought-provoking, but still stick to what I wrote. Tuning by any system of mean thirds would be more 'perfect' but limits the number of keys (or 'tonal centres' if you like) available drastically. Equal temperament is a compromise where nothing is quite in tune, but we're used to it now, and composers wrote (usually) in that knowledge.

[Pabmusic]

Indeed, the work was written expressly for well-temperament, not equal temperament.

See Bradley Lehman, for instance.

Quite right. I've used the term sloppily. I meant a system of compromises that allows free access to all keys.

[vinteuil]

Yes - last time I was concerned about such things (many years ago... ), scholarly opinion was that Bach was definitely not using "equal temperament" but the "good temperament" - perhaps specifically Werckmeister III - for works such as the "48". I think since then other temperaments have also been suggested, and Werckmeister III is only one possibility that he may have had in mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werckmeister_temperament

[MrGongGong]

One could, of course, argue that the increased mobility and interest in musics of other cultures has led to a much more divergent approach to the whole issue of tuning ! (Partch, La Monte Young, the whole microtonal music world etc etc ) so maybe in that respect the unknown piece of Javanese Gamelan that Debussy heard a the 1889 Paris Universal Exposition could be one of the most significant pieces in music history ?

[vinteuil]

in that respect the unknown piece of Javanese Gamelan that Debussy heard a the 1889 Paris Universal Exposition could be one of the most significant pieces in music history ?

... nice!

.

[Roehre]

Schubert: The Unfinished Symphony (I won't complicate things by trying to give it a number). This was the first clearly 'romantic' symphony, on a scale undreamed of. Beethoven's Eroica (itself a good candidate for this list) came close, but Schubert's approach is clearly not at all classical. The unusual key ('impossible' for the brass in its day) and unexpected key-relationships (G, with no preparation, for the second subject?) is one of several features that make this more of a ‘romantic’ work than a ‘classical’ one. One cannot imagine Mozart, Haydn or even Beethoven doing this; indeed it may have been its novelty that caused Schubert to stop after two-and-a-bit movements.

Nice one, as it defines sharply the difference between a masterwork that from the moment it was composed changed music history and one that did so (much) later. The unfinished, left unfinished in 1822, did not receive its first performance until 1865.

To some extant a similar situation is the case with the "48".

At the other hand: Wagner's Tristan, Stravinsky's Sacre and Debussy's Faun and Jeux nearly immediately had an impact.

[Pabmusic]

Nice one, as it defines sharply the difference between a masterwork that from the moment it was composed changed music history and one that did so (much) later. The unfinished, left unfinished in 1822, did not receive its first performance until 1865.

To some extant a similar situation is the case with the "48".

At the other hand: Wagner's Tristan, Stravinsky's Sacre and Debussy's Faun and Jeux nearly immediately had an impact.

I agree. Just to consider the most obvious: could Bruckner or Dvorak have written many of their greatest works without the example of late Schubert? The Dvorak cello concerto even opens with the first notes of the Unfinished.

[Roehre]

I agree. Just to consider the most obvious: could Bruckner or Dvorak have written many of their greatest works without the example of late Schubert? The Dvorak cello concerto even opens with the first notes of the Unfinished.

I think the answer is simply: no.
I personally think as well that the stilistic difference between Bruckner's symphonies 00, 0 and 1 vs 3-9 partly is caused by Bruckner getting acquainted with the Unfinished (together with Wagner's music, obviously; 2 being a transitional work in that sense).

[Suffolkcoastal]

i agree with the comments of Schubert 8 above, this got me thinking further. I wonder what the impact Schubert's 10th symphony would have had (which I was listening to last night), if only he'd lived a few more months or even weeks. Three movements are complete in piano score (with some instrumental indications), the work is astonishing, an eerie sparcity combined with a fasination with counterpoint makes the work feel in places like it belongs in the 20th century. The score was orchestrated by Brian Newbould, how Schubert would ultimately have orchestrated one can only wonder. I doubt even if Schubert had fully completed and orchestrated the work whether it would have been performed as there is no doubt it would have been to controversial for the time in which it was written, but if it had been discovered later like No 8 then who knows what influence it could have had. The early death of Mozart is often remarked on as the greatest tragedy for classical music, I feel the tragic early death of Schubert was something a far greater loss.

[Chris Newman]

I agree. Just to consider the most obvious: could Bruckner or Dvorak have written many of their greatest works without the example of late Schubert? The Dvorak cello concerto even opens with the first notes of the Unfinished.

Without the Unfinished Symphony would Smetana's "From Bohemia's Woods and Fields" in "Ma Vlast" have sounded the same at its opening? Much of Ma Vlast is the work of a splendid magpie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCRFe07Aot0

[Pabmusic]

I wonder what the impact Schubert's 10th symphony would have had...if only he'd lived a few more months or even weeks...I doubt even if Schubert had fully completed and orchestrated the work whether it would have been performed as there is no doubt it would have been to controversial for the time in which it was written, but if it had been discovered later like No 8 then who knows what influence it could have had. The early death of Mozart is often remarked on as the greatest tragedy for classical music, I feel the tragic early death of Schubert was something a far greater loss.

Agreed. The 'tenth' gives us a very frustrating glimpse of what might have been. It's not very likely it would have been performed, though, even if Schubert had finished it. The Great C Major was completed but not performed, and I'm reasonably sure that only the 5th was definitely played in his lifetime (though I believe the 3rd may have had a private performance). Schubert heard almost none of his orchestral works (one of the overtures in an Italian style, plus the Rosamunde music make up the list, I think). There wasn't even a regular outlet for orchestral music in Vienna at the time; it took Otto Nicolai to found the Philharmonie in the 1840s before the situation improved.

[Roehre]

Agreed. The 'tenth' gives us a very frustrating glimpse of what might have been. It's not very likely it would have been performed, though, even if Schubert had finished it.

I am doubtful whether Schubert would have left the piece structurally unchanged. With the first two mvts possibly hardly amended, I think the 3rd mvt -essentially starting as a scherzo-like piece but then not really convincingly becoming a finale- would have been straightenend and a proper stand-alone finale developed from this material.
The contrapuntal "derailment" in the present 3rd mvt -losing the plot a bit, caused/influenced by his study with Sechter?- is the main reason why I think Schubert would have changed this part of this -a first!- draft.

But - whatever- a Schubert 9th or 10th premiered in the late 1820s itself certainly would have made a potentially hugh difference in the course of music history, let alone a Schubert who had lived another twenty years, like his brother Ferdinand (But the same applies obviously to Beethoven). I agree, Schubert's early death robbed us from more than Mozart's.