Great though Schubert is I don't think any of his music "changed the course of music history" as much as Schoenberg, Monteverdi, Cage or the unknown Javanese
The five masterpieces that changed the course of musical history
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Schubert had just the one lesson with Sechter I believe before his death, though he apparently was practising counterpoint in preparation whilst writing the 10th. Yes I think either there would have been a separate finale or the Scherzo-Finale would have been more successfully merged and considerably lengthened. The 2nd movement really is very strange and prophetic.
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amateur51
Originally posted by cloughie View PostUnless I've missed it I am surprised that Berlioz has not had a mention. To me the Fantastque Sym was years ahead of its time.
And what/who did it influence?
Charles-Valentin Alkan - Op. 39 No. 12 Le Festin D'EsopeRecorded at: Indiana University, BloomingtonPiano: Steinway Model D ca.1975?
Bravo Edward Cohen!
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Originally posted by Suffolkcoastal View PostYou've beaten me to it, I was coming back to this point later this evening!
However, given Beethoven's influence on both Berlioz and Schubert, I would still plump for the Eroica ahead of any of their works.Del boy: “Get in, get out, don’t look back. That’s my motto!”
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Originally posted by cloughie View PostUnless I've missed it I am surprised that Berlioz has not had a mention. To me the Fantastque Sym was years ahead of its time.Last edited by Petrushka; 26-01-12, 21:45."The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink
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Originally posted by MrGongGong View PostI'm not sure about this assumption
According to many musicologists this isn't true at all, for example see...
How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony : (And Why You Should Care) : Ross W DuffinOriginally posted by Bryn View PostIndeed, the work was written expressly for well-temperament, not equal temperament.Originally posted by french frank View PostI don't quite understand how that changes the significance of TWTC in making music 'sound different' thereafter?
This is impossible under any system of 'natural' tuning, because of the 'Pythagorean Comma' that kicks in at note 13 of any scale. This is the phenomenon that causes the octave note of C to be nearer to B#, not C, and means that every higher note will be slightly flatter than we'd now expect. It would also mean that the note E (for instance) would actually be slightly different if it were the tonic of the scale of E, the third of the scale of C, the fifth of A, the sixth of G, and so on, because in each case the relationship between the note and the fundamental tone is mathematically different, and not just by a multiple of a fixed interval.
We could, of course, abandon our artificial system and return to 'natural' forms of tuning - after all, Western culture is the only one that developed equal temperament* - but we'd not be able to play much written in the last 500 years - certainly nothing much from the 17th Century onwards. Ross Duffin makes the point that we in the west have lost a natural 'connection' with music that other cultures have because we are used to artificial tuning. I'd argue that equal temperament has created harmony (as we usually understand it) rather that ruined it, but I sort of see his point. Things would be different (very much so) and we can regret not experiencing that, of course, but we'd lose most of what we hold dear. It's all compromise, with gains and losses.
*Apparently the Chinese understood the Pythagorean Comma paradox 4000 years ago, but didn't seem interested in solving it!Last edited by Pabmusic; 27-01-12, 06:01.
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Originally posted by Pabmusic View PostWe could, of course, abandon our artificial system and return to 'natural' forms of tuning - after all, Western culture is the only one that developed equal temperament* - but we'd not be able to play much written in the last 500 years - certainly nothing much from the 17th Century onwards.
well yes and no
we could easily play most of La Monte Youngs music, Arnold Dreyblat's early pieces and Glen Branca's work
I could probably come up with lots more if I tried
What I got from Duffin's book was a refutation of the idea that somehow tuning was "standardised" at a fixed point in history , the stuff about major and minor semitones is fascinating........
also it's important to remember that virtually no ensembles play at the "standard" pitch of A=440 many instruments are made at 442 and many orchestras habitually play much higher than that (look at the harpist when the oboe gives an A , frenzied activity usually indicates that the pitch given is something radically different from what they had tuned to initially).........
of course without the profession of music with musicians travelling with their own instruments from place to place there would be no need for any of this , the tunings of various Gamelans I have played (and the intervals between the notes) vary widely (as do many organs etc )
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Originally posted by Pabmusic View PostJ S Bach: das Wohltemperierte Clavier[/B] Written specifically to demonstrate the new equal temperament; without equal temperament we could have had no classical, romantic, expressionist or dodecaphonic music (and a lot more besides)
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Originally posted by MrGongGong View Posthummm
well yes and no
we could easily play most of La Monte Youngs music, Arnold Dreyblat's early pieces and Glen Branca's work
I could probably come up with lots more if I tried
What I got from Duffin's book was a refutation of the idea that somehow tuning was "standardised" at a fixed point in history , the stuff about major and minor semitones is fascinating........
also it's important to remember that virtually no ensembles play at the "standard" pitch of A=440 many instruments are made at 442 and many orchestras habitually play much higher than that (look at the harpist when the oboe gives an A , frenzied activity usually indicates that the pitch given is something radically different from what they had tuned to initially).........
of course without the profession of music with musicians travelling with their own instruments from place to place there would be no need for any of this , the tunings of various Gamelans I have played (and the intervals between the notes) vary widely (as do many organs etc )
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Originally posted by Pabmusic View PostI don't disagree with a word of this. The tuning of A=440 Hz was accepted as an international standard only in (I think) 1955, and it's not law anyway! Lets hope no-one ever tries to make it so. The precise pitch doesn't affect the relationship between the notes, though, which is what equal temperament is about.
I do think that the whole "keys having a character" (D minor being the saddest etc ) is the rump of a time when different keys DID have completely different characteristics. In loosing this we have lost much of the harmonic subtlety that is maintained in other musics of the world, and also the way in which we have designed our instruments to be even toned rather than having particular pitches with different timbral characteristics.
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Originally posted by MrGongGong View Postalso it's important to remember that virtually no ensembles play at the "standard" pitch of A=440 many instruments are made at 442 and many orchestras habitually play much higher than that (look at the harpist when the oboe gives an A , frenzied activity usually indicates that the pitch given is something radically different from what they had tuned to initially).........
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Originally posted by MrGongGong View PostA good friend of mine who is an organ consultant has more than a few books worth of stories about this whole area (and a rather technical Phd) I find the whole thing fascinating as sonic experience contradicts all our attempts to "standardise".
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Originally posted by MrGongGong View PostI do think that the whole "keys having a character" (D minor being the saddest etc ) is the rump of a time when different keys DID have completely different characteristics. In loosing this we have lost much of the harmonic subtlety that is maintained in other musics of the world, and also the way in which we have designed our instruments to be even toned rather than having particular pitches with different timbral characteristics.
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