Not good pieces by good composers

[MrGongGong]

I wonder what the "list" would be if one didn't conflate personal taste with quality ?

[Pabmusic]

I wonder what the "list" would be if one didn't conflate personal taste with quality ?

You have a very good point, though it might be risky to take a relativist view throughout and suggest that all music is equally good or bad, being distinguished only by individual taste. I suspect most people (at least, those experienced in 'classical' music) can sense that some pieces show signs of tiredness, of routine, of 'run-of -the-mill', of 'going through the motions', or whatever. They were often written in a hurry, for a specific occasion. Many of the pieces named fall into this category (Wellington's Victory, for instance). I think there are also pieces where the composer has been just a bit too earnest (Reformation Symphony perhaps), or maybe didn't appreciate his own limitations (not common with 'good' composers, of course).

A good example might be Elgar's Sea Pictures. This was a commission for the Norwich Festival of 1899, and Elgar fitted its composition around the preparations for the first performance of the Enigma (June 99), the subsequent revision of the end of that work (for a performance in September), as well as moving house. There are five songs, of which 1, 2 and 4 are top-drawer Elgar. The last song is OK, and very Elgarian, but the themes are not quite as inspired. And song 3 (Sabbath Morning at Sea) starts and ends promisingly, but flags terribly in between - it just seems pious Victorian 'religious' writing. Of course the whole is wonderfully scored, but it does betray its hurried birth.

[Norfolk Born]

Meanwhile, back in the land of straightforward answers: I've always thought that Tchaikowsky's 3rd Symphony has been justly neglected, and I don't rate the 'Manfred' that highly, either. Both make far too much of a limited range of musical ideas.

[verismissimo]

Advice to anyone else who plans to start a thread like this one:

Simply light the blue touch paper and stand well clear.

And don't assume that folk will read and/or understand the premise.

Thanks to Roehre for his valiant attempt to clarify this one.

[cloughie]

A good example might be Elgar's Sea Pictures. This was a commission for the Norwich Festival of 1899, and Elgar fitted its composition around the preparations for the first performance of the Enigma (June 99), the subsequent revision of the end of that work (for a performance in September), as well as moving house. There are five songs, of which 1, 2 and 4 are top-drawer Elgar. The last song is OK, and very Elgarian, but the themes are not quite as inspired. And song 3 (Sabbath Morning at Sea) starts and ends promisingly, but flags terribly in between - it just seems pious Victorian 'religious' writing. Of course the whole is wonderfully scored, but it does betray its hurried birth.

And at the end of the day it is the interpretation that delivers it. For my ears most recordings of Sea Pictures the soloist displays too much vibrato, or am I wrong and it is implicit in Elgar's writing.

[Pabmusic]

And at the end of the day it is the interpretation that delivers it. For my ears most recordings of Sea Pictures the soloist displays too much vibrato, or am I wrong and it is implicit in Elgar's writing.

Quite agree. I don't think the vibrato is especially implicit, although it's probably nearer to what Elgar had in mind. One thing about Sea Pictures is that it's stated to be for contralto (Clara Butt gave the premiere, dressed as a mermaid) but it lies more comfortably for mezzo-soprano. Perhaps this means that many contraltos strain a little, and that has an effect on vibrato. But I'm no singer.

[Serial_Apologist]

(Clara Butt gave the premiere, dressed as a mermaid)

[Parry1912]

And why does my beloved Mendelssohn get such a raw deal on here?, his music seems to be getting slated on nearly every thread.

I actually think that Mendelssohn takes quite a lot of listening to before one fully appreciates how great he was. Add to that that some of his more popular works (Violin Concerto and 'Italian' Symphony, for example) seem superficially quite light and people don't always give him a chance. If they did then they would see the depth behind the surface charm and elegance.

[MrGongGong]

Meanwhile, back in the land of straightforward answers:

By which I understand to mean .......... music wot I don't like
which is not the same as , music that isn't "good" by a "good" composer

[Roehre]

I actually think that Mendelssohn takes quite a lot of listening to before one fully appreciates how great he was. Add to that that some of his more popular works (Violin Concerto and 'Italian' Symphony, for example) seem superficially quite light and people don't always give him a chance. If they did then they would see the depth behind the surface charm and elegance.

IMO there is a lot of truth in this observation.
As composer Mendelssohn (with Schubert for that matter, btw) was a real prodigy in that sense that his compositions nearly from the start ARE unmistakingly Mendelssohn (something which cannot be said of Mozart's early works I'm afraid).

The relatively lighthearted works -as e.g. the Misummernightdream overture- and sunny ones like the octet (with an example of one of those remarkable Mendelsohnian scherzos) or the much later violin concerto stick to minds as the "Real" Mendelssohn.
But his string quartets show a digesting of Beethoven's late quartets (Beethoven op.127 influenced Mendelssohn's op.12 considerably) and the development of a much more mature and in depth style in e.g. the string quartet (-pieces) opp. 80 and especially op.81.
There are many other dramatic works and moments in his output - but many completely unknown to a wider public.
I do think as well, that the orchestral output of his is more "homogenous" in its atmospheres and moods than the IMO much more widely ranged chamber music.

As far as the Reformation-symphony is concerned, I am afraid that IMO in this form it is one of Mendelssohn's weaker works. But here we have to keep in mind, that he himself did not publish the work, as his self-criticism told him it needed a severe revision - which his very untimely death prevented.

[Mr Pee]

I actually think that Mendelssohn takes quite a lot of listening to before one fully appreciates how great he was. Add to that that some of his more popular works (Violin Concerto and 'Italian' Symphony, for example) seem superficially quite light and people don't always give him a chance. If they did then they would see the depth behind the surface charm and elegance.

Couldn't agree more. Just listen to the slow movemnt of the 2nd String Quintet- there's plenty of depth there.

[amateur51]

Couldn't agree more. Just listen to the slow movemnt of the 2nd String Quintet- there's plenty of depth there.

Beware Mr Pee! - you're in grave danger of breaking free from your carefully nurtured reputation

[Mr Pee]

Beware Mr Pee! - you're in grave danger of breaking free from your carefully nurtured reputation

Sorry about that- don't know what came over me.

I can only think I was temporarily discombobulated after watching Maria Sharapova at the Australian Open.....

[amateur51]

Sorry about that- don't know what came over me.

I can only think I was temporarily discombobulated after watching Maria Sharapova at the Australian Open.....

That's the one I meant

[Pabmusic]

Just to complete the Clara Butt picture: she was 6' 2" tall!