Not good pieces by good composers

[jayne lee wilson]

Er - sorry, what!? Schubert...?!

The 1st movement of Mendelssohn's 5th is based on the famous "Dresden Amen" (well-known from Schumann's 3rd and Parsifal - Wagner modelled his version on Mendelssohn's). The main allegro is simply a speeded-up version of the closely-related theme from the introduction - and very convincing and enjoyable I find it. The richness of invention, the proliferation of motivic ideas and developments make it closer to Beethoven than to anything else, as were FMB's early string quartets.

After the joyously fleet-footed (and melodically memorable!) scherzo (a musical form Mendelssohn almost made his own, like Brahms' intermezzi) there's one of his most intense, and typically compressed, slow movements where listeners often mistake brevity for lack of depth. (vide Waldstein sonata and Triple Concerto...)

The finale is a remarkably original structure based on the Lutheran chorale "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" which itself is clearly a member of the same thematic family as the first movement's principal ideas!
The whole symphony is rich in thematic cross-reference and motivic interrelations, which shouldn't surprise anyone who knows FMB's early quartets; bear in mind the "Symphony no.5" is an actually an early work, written when he was 20!

All of which mightn't matter if it weren't also tunefully and harmonically memorable - it's often humming around my head somewhere...

Chris and Caliban - get Colin Davis's Dresden State recording and see if you change your mind(s). You'll get a lovely No.3 into the bargain...

I agree absolutely with Caliban about the Reformation Symphony and Elijah. I have tried over many years to find what people see in the symphony. His main theme may have been his tribute to Schubert and his Great C Major Symphony but comes across as a monstrous jokey version suitable for a Hoffnung Concert. There are some lovely moments in Elijah but the sum of the dirgey bits squashes them flat.

Gerontius is a work of great beauty and genius. As with much religious music at its best, whilst it is playing, it makes me wish I was too.

1812 needs to be played rather than treated as a warhorse. The celebrated Fistoulari had twice failed to convince me as a teenager it was good as he raced through it at Victor Hochauser "Tchaikovsky Nights" at the Albert Hall. Years later I was convinced first by Boris Brott (There's a rave from the grave! He is still going in the Uat one of these same nights. I secretly thought I had grown out of them but a good friend meant well and insisted on taking me as a birthday present. Brott conducted it with soul, expression and mostly slowly. My Silvestri recording comes close to it. I know it can work with or without the vast extra forces that impresarios like to add.

[HighlandDougie]

I'm with JLW on the Reformation - if played with conviction (Munch, Abbado, Dohnanyi, Flor ..... - don't know the Davis but can't imagine it being anything other than excellent).

I realise that there's always a temptation to go in for this sort of post in that it's always good fun to parade one's prejudices (oh, how I long to say the entire oeuvres of the two Richards - Strauss and Wagner - but that would be to concede that the former was a good composer, plus le tout J S Bach etc etc) but I'm not sure that it does much other than to get other people harrumphing away ("What? Verdi?" - hmm, thinking about it, make that Puccini, guv) but then I suspect I'm just being a boring old f**t by attempting to preach reasonableness, rather than sweeping generalisations

[cloughie]

I'm with JLW on the Reformation - if played with conviction (Munch, Abbado, Dohnanyi, Flor ..... - don't know the Davis but can't imagine it being anything other than excellent).

I realise that there's always a temptation to go in for this sort of post in that it's always good fun to parade one's prejudices (oh, how I long to say the entire oeuvres of the two Richards - Strauss and Wagner - but that would be to concede that the former was a good composer, plus le tout J S Bach etc etc) but I'm not sure that it does much other than to get other people harrumphing away ("What? Verdi?" - hmm, thinking about it, make that Puccini, guv) but then I suspect I'm just being a boring old f**t by attempting to preach reasonableness, rather than sweeping generalisations

Love the Reformation:
LSO Abbado
BRSO Ashkenazy
NYPO Bernstein
IPO Bernstein
DSO Davis C
CPO Delogu
VPO Dohnanyi
VPO Eliot Gardiner
LPO Haitink
BPO Karajan
ECO Leppard
MadridSO Maag
BPO Maazel
LGO Masur
BSO Munch
NPO Muti
DetSO Paray
CinSO Rudolf
NPO Sawallisch
PO Weller

Good composers not good works

Ravel Bolero
Beethoven Sym 9 (movt 4)
Britten Peter Grimes (other than Sea Interludes & Passacaglia)
Britten Other operas

[Mary Chambers]

Good composers not good works


Britten Peter Grimes (other than Sea Interludes & Passacaglia)
Britten Other operas

Now it's just getting silly

[EdgeleyRob]

And why does my beloved Mendelssohn get such a raw deal on here?, his music seems to be getting slated on nearly every thread.

I'm with JLW on the Reformation - if played with conviction

The 1st movement of Mendelssohn's 5th is based on the famous "Dresden Amen" (well-known from Schumann's 3rd and Parsifal - Wagner modelled his version on Mendelssohn's). The main allegro is simply a speeded-up version of the closely-related theme from the introduction - and very convincing and enjoyable I find it. The richness of invention, the proliferation of motivic ideas and developments make it closer to Beethoven than to anything else, as were FMB's early string quartets.

After the joyously fleet-footed (and melodically memorable!) scherzo (a musical form Mendelssohn almost made his own, like Brahms' intermezzi) there's one of his most intense, and typically compressed, slow movements where listeners often mistake brevity for lack of depth. (vide Waldstein sonata and Triple Concerto...)

The finale is a remarkably original structure based on the Lutheran chorale "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" which itself is clearly a member of the same thematic family as the first movement's principal ideas!
The whole symphony is rich in thematic cross-reference and motivic interrelations, which shouldn't surprise anyone who knows FMB's early quartets; bear in mind the "Symphony no.5" is an actually an early work, written when he was 20!

All of which mightn't matter if it weren't also tunefully and harmonically memorable - it's often humming around my head somewhere...

Love the Reformation:

Ah, I am not alone

[cloughie]

Now it's just getting silly

No Britten a great writer of Orchestral music but his operas?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Y'see what happens?!

It's like the "I so regret hearing ... " thread. After about four responses it just deteriorates into "I don't like this piece/composer" until somebody says that Bach "couldn't really compose" at which point everybody realizes how silly everyone else is being and then the Thread stops. For a couple of weeks. Then somebody else starts it all over again with a "I like Beethoven, but he couldn't really write for 'cello, could he?" AND IT ALL STARTS AGAIN!!!!

[VodkaDilc]

No Britten a great writer of Orchestral music but his operas?

I thought it was the other way around!

[cloughie]

I thought it was the other way around!

Well there you go - it's all a question of what the ear communicates to the brain!

[Mr Pee]

Now it's just getting silly

It's like the "I so regret hearing ... " thread. After about four responses it just deteriorates into "I don't like this piece/composer" until somebody says that Bach "couldn't really compose" at which point everybody realizes how silly everyone else is being and then the Thread stops. For a couple of weeks. Then somebody else starts it all over again with a "I like Beethoven, but he couldn't really write for 'cello, could he?" AND IT ALL STARTS AGAIN!!!!

[Roehre]

Y'see what happens?!

It's like the "I so regret hearing ... " thread. After about four responses it just deteriorates into "I don't like this piece/composer" until somebody says that Bach "couldn't really compose" at which point everybody realizes how silly everyone else is being and then the Thread stops. For a couple of weeks. Then somebody else starts it all over again with a "I like Beethoven, but he couldn't really write for 'cello, could he?" AND IT ALL STARTS AGAIN!!!!

It seems for many an impossibillity to understand the difference between I personally don't like such and such a piece and this piece is lacking a quality which other works in the composer's output do possess. Which is a pity, as it means that many are unable to understand the concept of quality in (classical) music independently from their own prejudices.

[Serial_Apologist]

Dirty boy !!

Knew you'd spot it, Cali!

[LeMartinPecheur]

Can I suggest Brahms as the composer who most obviously failed to publish sub-standard works? If you look down his list of opus numbers, the only works that don't seem to have stayed in the repertoire are just those where the whole repertoire has ceased to command interest, such as pieces for women's choir. Where is the duff Brahms orchestral, chamber or piano work?

...unless of course you are Benjamin Britten....and even he played the Liebeslieder Waltzes.

[Pabmusic]

Oh I love that! [Festmusik der Stadt Wien]

Agreed that Festliches Präludium op.61 is an absolute dog's breakfast though And old Richard couldn't write choral music to save his life, I think.

Oh dear! The trouble with this thread is that I'm temperamentally unsuited to dismissing any music - it requires real effort. So I played through the Festmusik again (first time for 20 years I suspect) and it's not half bad. I take back what I said (though not about the Festliches Präludium, which is still dire!).

[Nick Armstrong]

Oh dear! The trouble with this thread is that I'm temperamentally unsuited to dismissing any music - it requires real effort. So I played through the Festmusik again (first time for 20 years I suspect) and it's not half bad. I take back what I said (though not about the Festliches Präludium, which is still dire!).