The Symphony after 1945

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Tippett's 3rd Symphony is one of his boldest, most original creations, tightly unified motivically but embracing an extraordinary range of contrasting moods, emotions, orchestral colours and musical styles. It sets the elemental forces, both human energy and natural phenomena, of part one against the evocations of urban, totally human passions and conflict - at times inhuman as only humans can be - of part two. His quotation and subsequent distortion of Beethoven's Ode to Joy couldn't be clearer in addressing the problem of what we have lost - that universal aspiration to a sisterhood and brotherhood of humankind, the cry of joy which has become impossible for an artist to express with anything approaching the same power and conviction. In 2011, we are still further away from such possibilities than in 1972, but is there a composer alive now who could address these issues so directly in a convincing, large-scale symphonic structure?

The blues numbers themselves have many memorable and vivid musical ideas and images, those wildly gurgling winds in the fast blues, the sliding, sidestepping bass line in the last one, but it's here that I find the one "embarrassing" feature of the work - the lyrics! I don't envy the soprano who has to sing the second number; maybe we should blame TS Eliot for encouraging Tippett to write his own (for Child of Our Time)... I would add too that a true Big Band would give a much better account of the blues numbers than the LSO or the BSO manage (for all their other glories). Might cost a bit to mount it though...

For me, the blues works in context as the greatest possible contrast with part one, the endlessly inventive contrapuntal textures now followed by tunes and accompaniments, popular song. Thereafter the many threads of the work are drawn together in a coda of great dramatic force (and with better, more direct lyrics), but one which inevitably arrives at no musical or emotional answer to the Great Questions that have been asked.

Listening to the work now one is struck by how fresh and how challenging it still is to both ear and heart; I can well imagine the shocked or dismissive reaction it might get now, from audience and reviewers, in a world where forgettable accessibility is the norm for premieres, and music of true integrity and complexity like Ferneyhough or Dillon tends to be ghettoised into late night broadcasts from scattered festivals...

The Tippett dares to be both direct in its message and almost shockingly bold and original in its means.

Magnificent post, jlw: these are exactly my own thoughts on this great Symphony but stated far more eloquently than I could have dreamt! Your post often provoke me to reconsider my own stance on a piece (sometimes to contradict what you've said, sometimes to agree) and they are always eloquently and feelingly written, but in this post I think you've surpassed even your own high standards.

Best Wishes.

[3rd Viennese School]

My apologies for not writing sooner. Got no internet at home and busy at work!
As ever, scattered all over the shop thoughts from 3VS. It’s too big an issue to give an overview!

Having completed the Schnittke symphony cycle, 1 away from Henze completion until his next one, and 2 away from Maxwell Davies until his next one I will say that these cycle of symphonies are just as different and interesting (or even more so!) as past contemporary symphonic cycles. You could have quite a few Radio 3 shows dedicated to it.

I heard either Gerhard symphony no.3 or 4 in 2007. Wish I had recorded it because I’ve got no idea what it was like now, apart from atonal. Anyone like to enlighten me on this?

I don’t think I’ve heard any serial symphonies- (Sessions?). Is there many of them?

As for the German problem I heard that in Henze symphony no.1 which was after world war 2 and he moved out of Germany, he chose music that was banned by the Nazis, such as Neo Classicial and Serial. (and what about the very English mvt 2!). Symphony no.7 is described as a German symphony, the first one in 4 mvts and its very angry!
A very odd one- be good for Radio 3 to broadcast this, is no.6 with its Cuban influences and weird percussion.

Went to see Shostakovich Symphony no.15 live in 2001 and to some of the audience, who had probably heard his famous ones, this symphony could have been written today. Even had a comment behind me when mvt 3 abruptly ended!

Anyway, still lots for me to explore. The question is- where next?

3VS

P.S. Could you do a symphony of 12 note pop tunes that’s not for orchestra but for keyboard? That could be my next project!

[Panjandrum]

As a devotee of lovely, lovely Ludwig Van, I am surprised that no-one has seen fit to mention the symphonies of Robert Simpson: the scherzo to the 4th is paradigmatic; "as if some lunatic has got hold of one of (Beethoven's) scherzos!"

Has there been a greater post-war symphony than the 9th? I doubt it.

[Roehre]

For Simpson see post #29-31 i.a.

[Panjandrum]

For Simpson see post #29-31 i.a.

That's reassuring Roehre: thanks!

[ahinton]

As a devotee of lovely, lovely Ludwig Van, I am surprised that no-one has seen fit to mention the symphonies of Robert Simpson: the scherzo to the 4th is paradigmatic; "as if some lunatic has got hold of one of (Beethoven's) scherzos!"

Has there been a greater post-war symphony than the 9th? I doubt it.

Well, I think that this is a rather large claim for Simpson 9 but I couldn't agree more that it is a most astonishing work - and the remark that you made about the scherzo of 4 is surely even more apposite to that of 9!

[Boilk]

Of the three Tippett symphonies (and that's not a misprint), I still find the second the finest of all, followed by the fourth and lastly the first.

Tippett's Third is indeed a symphony, and one of the most important such works to make the genre RELEVANT and REVITALISED for the late 20th century. For all its radicalism, its structure is bewilderingly traditional, fast-slow-scherzo-finale; and every minute of it highly inventive. It makes the symphonies of Robert Simpson and David Matthews (to name but two) sound positively old-fashioned by comparison!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It makes the symphonies of Robert Simpson and David Matthews (to name but two) sound positively old-fashioned by comparison!

I agree with your comments, but two things occur to me reading this final comment:

"Old-fashioned", perhaps, but in the way that Berlioz (or Liszt or Bruckner) made Brahms sound so. I don't hold this as a criticism of Simpson (or Brahms).

Coupling Simpson and Matthews seems odd to me, as if you regard them as of equal merit (or lack thereof). I get very few rewards from Matthews' works, whereas I feel that Simpson was a master whose work I greatly admire - the "Slow Movements" in particular fascinate me: a sort of "organic meandering" where what seems like free-form rhapsodic Music has a powerful underlying sense of destination that reveals itself only as the Movement ends. The Slow Movement of Tippett's Third does the same thing in a completely different manner.

Best Wishes.

[Biffo]

Berlioz certainly didn't consider Brahms old-fashioned. On hearing the young Brahms play he said 'This young man is trying to do something new in music, he will suffer greatly'.

[3rd Viennese School]

I like Tippett 2.Saying that, its the only Tippett symphony Ive heard. It sounds modern.even though its in C major! And the scherzos different.

I've heard Robert Simpson 4 but didnt get on with it. The scherzo seems to go round and and round in circles. I think its repeated on both sides?

I'm on the look out for my next symphonic adventure. Was up in town on Saturday at HMV OXford Street and Harold Moore. But couldnt work out what to get! (Still need to get Max 3 and 4 though!)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I like Tippett 2.Saying that, its the only Tippett symphony Ive heard.

Go for Nos 3 & 4, 3VS, I think the Third will be up your street.

I'm on the look out for my next symphonic adventure. Was up in town on Saturday at HMV OXford Street and Harold Moore. But couldnt work out what to get! (Still need to get Max 3 and 4 though!)

Has anyone mentioned Tubin? Not exactly my cup of tea (too much "sound and fury signifying nothing") but others have been very enthusiastic on other Threads.

Best Wishes.

[verismissimo]

Interesting piece on Britten and the symphony by David Nice:

http://davidnice.blogspot.com/

[3rd Viennese School]

"Go for Nos 3 & 4, 3VS, I think the Third will be up your street."

Too late now! Off to Wales next week. They dont have any shops!

Tippett 3 and 4 will be a 2012 job.

3VS

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Too late now! Off to Wales next week. They dont have any shops!

There's one in Abergavenny, but they probably won't have one in stock!

Tippett 3 and 4 will be a 2012 job.

... which will make for a very Happy New Year!

Best Wishes.