The Symphony after 1945

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"Whereas Carter often collected smaller pieces, conceived individually, into a single opus (such as the orchestral triptych of tghe 1980s, Three Occasions for Orchestra), with Symphonia he intended a single three-movement work from the beginning."

Clearly, then, his intention in this was to reveal it one movement at a time an allow the impression to be conveyed that the movements were not part of a whole by their being commissined and first performed separately by three different orchestras.

and / for this.

Begs the question why one of the foremost composers should wish to "allow [this] impression to be conveyed".

[meles]

I'm a great admirer of Simpson's symphonies. They are seldom played on R3, which is a shame, especially as they are quite short and for the most part approachable.

[EdgeleyRob]

The symphony after 1945.I sometimes listen to symphonies before quarter to 8.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The symphony after 1945.I sometimes listen to symphonies before quarter to 8.

I used to scintillate.

Now I can only sin 'til half-past three.

(With thanks and apologies to Roger McGough.)

[Serial_Apologist]

Of course, he was a Schoenberg pupil, but I don't hold that against him !

I should bloody well hope not!

I've often wondered what Arnold would have made of Roberto's symphonies, given that, symphonic in nature though much of Schoenberg's music was, particularly after his adoption of the 12-tone method, he himself never actually wrote a symphony; the second chamber symphony, which he returned to several times after commencing work on it immediately after finishing the first, in 1906, was completed in the diatonic language.

[Ferretfancy]

I should bloody well hope not!

I've often wondered what Arnold would have made of Roberto's symphonies, given that, symphonic in nature though much of Schoenberg's music was, particularly after his adoption of the 12-tone method, he himself never actually wrote a symphony; the second chamber symphony, which he returned to several times after commencing work on it immediately after finishing the first, in 1906, was completed in the diatonic language.

Please don't blow a gasket ! Actually I do enjoy some of Arnie's work, including the chamber symphonies, although as Constant Lambert once said, it's hard to imagine him writing a comic opera!
Bws.
Ferret

[ahinton]

and / for this.

Begs the question why one of the foremost composers should wish to "allow [this] impression to be conveyed".

I suppose that it might be thought to do that but, if so, the answer is very probably not so far away from the one that he gave to the egregious Mark Lawson when interviewed by him on one of the BBC R4 Back Row programmes and, to the wearisomely predictable question about what his secret is about being ale to keep going at his age (then approaching a mere 100), he answered "it's a secret!"; in other words, his particular sense of humour would, I suspect, be not averse to prompting him to keep some secrets and let them out as and when while keeping people guessing...

[jayne lee wilson]

Not quite convincing is it, that 2nd Chamber Symphony? Sounds to me like "Schoenberg for those who don't like Schoenberg", one of those pieces such as Verklarte Nacht (masterpiece in itself of course), Berg's Violin Concerto may be another, which allows those who can't cope with the more radical languages of the 20th Century to think, wow, I can enjoy modern music! If that's old-fashioned R3 elitism then - tough!

Always been fond of Gerhard's 1st, a complex otherworldly epic which still has some traces of sonata-argument and shadows of conventional thematic outlines, I love the contrast between those and the innovative and fresh orchestral sound. It's a piece to get enjoyably lost in! The nocturnal slow movement, intensely atmospheric, can be rewardingly returned to even on its own.
But yes, all 4 are very distinct and worth anyone's time - lots of it.

Huge admirer of Simpson (as a student, I nervously approached him in the RFH Green Room just after his talk about Bruckner 7 - he looked stern, but was very welcoming and complained that Groves had taken 6 minutes too long in the premiere of his own 6th!)
Nos. 3 (that dolce clarinet solo recalling the opening string theme after an explosive finale at the end of 2nd movement (you might think of Nielsen 5(i)), and 5 (astounding motivic/intervallic integration allied to rugged dynamism) are especially fine... 9 probably his magnum opus, lovely extended slow movement in the Hammerklavier-like 10th too (remember the lovely pastoral landscape on the hyperion CD "The Cloud" by one Prince Eugene?)...

How we neglect our own treasures, I wonder if the BBC ever forgave Simpson for being bloody-minded (and usually right!) about many things... at the Green Room in 1981 he said he disagreed with Hans Keller a propos foregrounds/backgrounds, I'd asked him whether he saw Bruckner in those terms...

[jayne lee wilson]

What about DSCH? The 10th and 11th develop broadly the same forms he used in 5 through 7, but then (drawing a veil over 12...) he takes a radically different direction in 13, 14 and 15, expressing the bitter truth about USSR's dark and death-haunted 20th Century history in completely new shapes.

Indeed the Soviet symphony after 1945 could be a whole thread in itself... Schnittke's 5th always impressed me as his most cogent, despite a less radical shape and sound than his later much stranger, offerings. He always finds intense veins of inspiration for slow movements q.v. 6 and 8, but the air they breathe is often from other planets...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

although as Constant Lambert once said, it's hard to imagine him writing a comic opera!

No need to imagine: just listen to Von Heute auf Morgan.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

although as Constant Lambert once said, it's hard to imagine him writing a comic opera!

No need to "imagine": just listen to Von Heute auf Morgen!

Jayne lee (#22):

Not quite convincing is it, that 2nd Chamber Symphony?

Yes, it is.

Best Wishes.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is there an echo in here?

[ahinton]

Not quite convincing is it, that 2nd Chamber Symphony? Sounds to me like "Schoenberg for those who don't like Schoenberg", one of those pieces such as Verklarte Nacht (masterpiece in itself of course), Berg's Violin Concerto may be another, which allows those who can't cope with the more radical languages of the 20th Century to think, wow, I can enjoy modern music! If that's old-fashioned R3 elitism then - tough!

No, it's not any kind of R3 or other élitism; it's just plain wrong - and Schönberg's second chamber sympony is wholly convincing to me! I think that it's important to remember that the work's origins date from just after the first and that Schönberg never really completely abandoned this way of thinking, as evidenced by his determination to complete that work almost three decades later (and, for Schönberg's chamber symphony no. 1½ you could do no better than check out Roslavets's relatively recently discovered chamber symphony, a work that makes me wonder if Myaskovsky - the only composer of note ever to have spoken highly of it at the time of its composition - even showed its score to Schönberg who was, after all, then contemplating emigrating to Russia). And anyway, your analogy about listeners and their thoughts about being able to absorb "modern music" doesn't stand up to scrutiny in that this context doesn't support it; remember Berg's article about why Schönberg's music is "so hard to understand" but which takes as the protagonist in his argument the D minor Quartet - tonal, yet in some ways one of the most complex and elaborate works Schönberg ever wrote. To what extent was Schönberg "radical" in any case? - and to what extent did he regard himself - or indeed want to be regarded - as such? Not a lot! These things just don't matter; it's the best of Schönberg's music that matters, first, last and all the time.

Always been fond of Gerhard's 1st, a complex otherworldly epic which still has some traces of sonata-argument and shadows of conventional thematic outlines, I love the contrast between those and the innovative and fresh orchestral sound. It's a piece to get enjoyably lost in! The nocturnal slow movement, intensely atmospheric, can be rewardingly returned to even on its own.
But yes, all 4 are very distinct and worth anyone's time - lots of it.

Huge admirer of Simpson (as a student, I nervously approached him in the RFH Green Room just after his talk about Bruckner 7 - he looked stern, but was very welcoming and complained that Groves had taken 6 minutes too long in the premiere of his own 6th!).

Nos. 3 (that dolce clarinet solo recalling the opening string theme after an explosive finale at the end of 2nd movement (you might think of Nielsen 5(i)), and 5 (astounding motivic/intervallic integration allied to rugged dynamism) are especially fine... 9 probably his magnum opus, lovely extended slow movement in the Hammerklavier-like 10th too (remember the lovely pastoral landscape on the hyperion CD "The Cloud" by one Prince Eugene?)...

How we neglect our own treasures, I wonder if the BBC ever forgave Simpson for being bloody-minded (and usually right!) about many things... at the Green Room in 1981 he said he disagreed with Hans Keller a propos foregrounds/backgrounds, I'd asked him whether he saw Bruckner in those terms...

Loud applause for everything else that you've written here and in your next post about DSCH!

[Colonel Danby]

I too am a wildly enthuiastic devotee of the music of Robert Simpson, and with the amazing Ninth Symphony we have on our hands one of the great 20th Century symphonic masterpieces: I was fortunate enough to make the first London performance of this astonishing work with the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Simon Rattle in the RFH, with the composer present, and it certainly packed a punch. I'd already become acquainted with Tod Handley's Bournemouth recording on Hyperion, but it was a delight to hear it live. Awesome is the word...and at 45 minutes it cannot be described as short.

It is a shame that more stuff by Doctor Bob does not get wider coverage, especially on the BBC, but then there are still elements with the portals of Broadcasting House that resent Simpson's valiant stand against the direction that music policy was taking, which of course led to his resignation from the Third in the 60s.

A truly wonderful genius.

[ahinton]

I too am a wildly enthuiastic devotee of the music of Robert Simpson, and with the amazing Ninth Symphony we have on our hands one of the great 20th Century symphonic masterpieces: I was fortunate enough to make the first London performance of this astonishing work with the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Simon Rattle in the RFH, with the composer present, and it certainly packed a punch. I'd already become acquainted with Tod Handley's Bournemouth recording on Hyperion, but it was a delight to hear it live. Awesome is the word...and at 45 minutes it cannot be described as short.

It is a shame that more stuff by Doctor Bob does not get wider coverage, especially on the BBC, but then there are still elements with the portals of Broadcasting House that resent Simpson's valiant stand against the direction that music policy was taking, which of course led to his resignation from the Third in the 60s.

A truly wonderful genius.

No. 9 is substantially the longest of Simpson's symphonies and, whilst there are dozens of other symphonists worthy of performance that get precious little airing on BBC (there's only so much airtime, after all), I cannot but agree that RS deserves far more exposure than he gets. The scherzo from 9 is the most outrageous and outrageously wonderful example of a Beethoven symphonic scherzo on the kind of adrenalin that no one in a hospital would dare administer to anyone that I've ever encountered, although I do feel sorry for the poor brass players with their many utterly exhausting loooooong notes in that movement!