Pomp & Circumstances March No.1: Do You Like It?

[MrGongGong]

So does that apply to the sentiments of the text ?
I can listen to the Mass without believing a word of it , quite happily
If I take part in a performance of The Great Learning do I have to embrace revolutionary socialism ?

[aeolium]

So does that apply to the sentiments of the text ?

No - why don't you read what I wrote a few messages back? "One doesn't have to share those sentiments to try to appreciate the music on its own terms."

But your strong reaction to the text of the work - and also to the text of LOHAG - suggests that while you are able to listen to the B Minor Mass without believing a word of it, you are not so dispassionate about the text of Gerontius (which you could also listen to without believing a word of it).

[MrGongGong]

It's either "intrinsic" or it's not
if the text (and the meaning of the text) is intrinsic then one can't ignore it
it doesn't make it "bad"music though

[aeolium]

The text is intrinsic and you can't ignore it, but you don't have to share its sentiments to appreciate the work as a whole.

[Serial_Apologist]

I quite agree, S_A - that was what I was trying to say, that the music could not be separated from the text of a choral work. By 'on its own terms' I meant appreciating the place of the text (whether or not you think it is 'nonsense') within the musical work, and the inspiration it provided to the composer - and that would be as true for Gerontius as for many other major choral works. Are you saying that the work failed for you because the poor quality of the text was reflected in the music for part 2? What do you mean by the 'wisdom of hindsight' here?

Sorry for the delay in responding, aeolium - got a bit diverted by the "Lento" thread, ahem!

Actually, you have answsered for me by using virtualy the same words I would have used in your own replay to Mr GG in your message 60. Please ignore my poor use of the expression "with the wisdom of hindsight", which was just a clumsy way of saying that whatever sympathies I felt towards "Gerontius" at the end of Part 1, on that first occasion of listening, had evaporated by the time I had struggled through the remainder of the work.

[Pabmusic]

It came out on Contour, as did also RPO Dorati Beethoven 5. Both subsequently appeared on DG. The Del Mar Guildford recording featured organ and a lovely echo.

Thank you, so it did.

[secondfiddle]

Norman Del Mar

Totally agree with Amateur that Norman Del Mar deserves a post of his own. He is another of those conductors whose reputation has faded because he was never given a major orchestra and was not invited to record nearly often enough. He was superb with large forces, such as Schonberg's Gurrelider, Delius's Mass of Life (his BBC performance fortunately was once released on Intaglio and should be re-issued), Mahler (I remember wonderful performances he gave of the symphonies in the 60s and 70s, especially Nos. 3 and 6), Bantock's Omar Khayyam, Vaughan Williams' Sancta Civitas and Five Tudor Portraits, Bax, . . . the list could go on. I have many off-air recordings of him conducting works he was never to record commercially. In fact just by chance while seeing this post I was playing Balakirev's First Symphony (BBC Scottish SO, 1981), one of many works that Del Mar would have become acquainted with while playing in the RPO under Beecham. He was superb in British music and someone I rate alongside Boult. It would be wonderful if some of his Proms performances could be resurrected on CD.

[Chris Newman]

As a non-believer I find it far easier to listen to and love religious music, whether Protestant or Catholic, whilst putting aside the sentiment of the words. That includes lots (I nearly wrote masses) of Bach, Elgar, Handel, Janacek. Frank Martin etc. On the other hand the words of LOHAG annoy me for their jingoism. I find it easier to make allowance for most people's religious beliefs than I do do for antisocial politics.

[Serial_Apologist]

As a non-believer I find it far easier to listen to and love religious music, whether Protestant or Catholic, whilst putting aside the sentiment of the words. That includes lots (I nearly wrote masses) of Bach, Elgar, Handel, Janacek. Frank Martin etc. On the other hand the words of LOHAG annoy me for their jingoism. I find it easier to make allowance for most people's religious beliefs than I do do for antisocial politics.

Much the same with me too, Chris. I have a fondness for Faure's Requiem, and I find the choral and orchestral works of Lili Boulanger extremely moving, given her circumstances.

[Op. XXXIX]

The text is intrinsic and you can't ignore it, but you don't have to share its sentiments to appreciate the work as a whole.

Exactly. (Though I have to admit a bit of a guilty pleasure for Newman's poem. )

[amateur51]

Totally agree with Amateur that Norman Del Mar deserves a post of his own. He is another of those conductors whose reputation has faded because he was never given a major orchestra and was not invited to record nearly often enough. He was superb with large forces, such as Schonberg's Gurrelider, Delius's Mass of Life (his BBC performance fortunately was once released on Intaglio and should be re-issued), Mahler (I remember wonderful performances he gave of the symphonies in the 60s and 70s, especially Nos. 3 and 6), Bantock's Omar Khayyam, Vaughan Williams' Sancta Civitas and Five Tudor Portraits, Bax, . . . the list could go on. I have many off-air recordings of him conducting works he was never to record commercially. In fact just by chance while seeing this post I was playing Balakirev's First Symphony (BBC Scottish SO, 1981), one of many works that Del Mar would have become acquainted with while playing in the RPO under Beecham. He was superb in British music and someone I rate alongside Boult. It would be wonderful if some of his Proms performances could be resurrected on CD.

Excellent stuff, secondfiddle

Why don't you repeat this as the first post of a new Maestro Del Mar thread & ask other board members for their views & memories?

When I did this for Sir Charles Groves a few months ago, some fascinating stuff was contributed

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?2895-Sir-Charles-Groves&highlight=Charles+Groves

[Pabmusic]

As a non-believer I find it far easier to listen to and love religious music, whether Protestant or Catholic, whilst putting aside the sentiment of the words. That includes lots (I nearly wrote masses) of Bach, Elgar, Handel, Janacek. Frank Martin etc. On the other hand the words of LOHAG annoy me for their jingoism. I find it easier to make allowance for most people's religious beliefs than I do do for antisocial politics.

I quite agree. There is a related point, which is that perhaps it was non-believers (or at least agnostics) who found it easier to tackle religious subjects without becoming pious. I'm pretty sure Elgar was like this; whatever he professed at different times, I get the feeling he was more interested in the intellectual side of religious subjects, rather than being moved by a profound belief. This is certainly true of The Apostles and The Kingdom, where the intellectual exercise was that of assembling the librettos. But it's also true of Gerontius, where the thing was the incorporation of Wagnerian music-drama to create something new in British choral music.

[Pabmusic]

Totally agree with Amateur that Norman Del Mar deserves a post of his own. He is another of those conductors whose reputation has faded because he was never given a major orchestra and was not invited to record nearly often enough. He was superb with large forces, such as Schonberg's Gurrelider, Delius's Mass of Life (his BBC performance fortunately was once released on Intaglio and should be re-issued), Mahler (I remember wonderful performances he gave of the symphonies in the 60s and 70s, especially Nos. 3 and 6), Bantock's Omar Khayyam, Vaughan Williams' Sancta Civitas and Five Tudor Portraits, Bax, . . . the list could go on. I have many off-air recordings of him conducting works he was never to record commercially. In fact just by chance while seeing this post I was playing Balakirev's First Symphony (BBC Scottish SO, 1981), one of many works that Del Mar would have become acquainted with while playing in the RPO under Beecham. He was superb in British music and someone I rate alongside Boult. It would be wonderful if some of his Proms performances could be resurrected on CD.

Truly an excellent post. Norman del Mar was a fine conductor, who was a genuinely nice man. He also wrote about music very well.

[BBMmk2]

Why is it that record companies dont recognise conductors, like Norman Del Mar, as the way they did Sir Adrian Boult?

[Pilchardman]

I don't believe that you have to be a believer to appreciate the B Minor mass , I don't believe in god (or even God) but think that there is plenty of sublime religious music ..........

Exactly.

Similarly I don't believe in aristocratic privilege, but realise that a lot of music was written for wealthy patrons.