Pomp & Circumstances March No.1: Do You Like It?

[Pilchardman]

however one can't "un-invent" what it has come to represent.

This is an interesting point. My feeling is that this can't help but colour my reaction to Elgar, however I know very well that I'm able to sweet aside unpleasant associations composers I do admire may have.

[Pabmusic]

What I intended to say is that I view him as a minor composer, not one of great note. I - as I'm sure everyone else does - have a metaphorical ranking into which I place composers, according to what I believe is their import or their talent to move (me). What I don't expect people to do is have the same ranking that I have. (Unless I'm arguing with my brother, in which case he will always, by definition, be Wrong).

I've had metaphorical rankings of composers most of my life. Trouble is, the ranking changes regularly, although composers don't seem to drop out completely. EE has been high up the ranking for nearly half a century, but primarily because the music 'speaks' to me, rather than any attempt to establish its importance. Also because EE is pretty well the only truly self-taught composer to have achieved the heights - which I think is rather wonderful.

[Pilchardman]

primarily because the music 'speaks' to me

That's pretty much what I do.

[Pilchardman]

Sorry, I was called away mid-post. I have a great deal of sympathy for the appeal of Elgar as a self-taught composer achieving acclaim. I just wish it was someone else who had done it!

My ranking also changes. Huge categories of music shift in it too. (I used to think German Opera far outranked Italian Opera, but I'm getting soft in my old age).

However, what hasn't changed for me is the pinnacle. For me the two greatest composers, by head and shoulders above the rest - like twin Suilvens above the Sutherland moors - are Bach and Schoenberg. This is for what they mean to me, but also for what they teach us about composition. Beneath that, of course the rankings shift.

[Barbirollians]

The P & C marches are a long way down my list of favourite Elgar- namely the concertos, the symphonies , Enigma , Sospiri,Elegy, I & Allegro and Serenade for Strings .

Although they have much beautiful music in the them the large oratorios rather leave me cold.

[Serial_Apologist]

Elgar enthusiasts often go into great rapture over (in particular !) Gerontius which I find to be pompous, overblown and has a dreadful libretto wallowing in the worst anglo-catholic nonsense.

Which, in view of Elgar's subsequent religious skepticism, is doubly ironic...

[Serial_Apologist]

Sorry, I was called away mid-post. I have a great deal of sympathy for the appeal of Elgar as a self-taught composer achieving acclaim. I just wish it was someone else who had done it!

Of course there was Havergal Brian, another virtually self-taught and from a working class background.

My ranking also changes. Huge categories of music shift in it too. (I used to think German Opera far outranked Italian Opera, but I'm getting soft in my old age).

As does mine - in my case switching forth and back. Probably an indication of immaturity in my case. But maybe preferable to people who stick with the same old, same old all their lives?

However, what hasn't changed for me is the pinnacle. For me the two greatest composers, by head and shoulders above the rest - like twin Suilvens above the Sutherland moors - are Bach and Schoenberg. This is for what they mean to me, but also for what they teach us about composition. Beneath that, of course the rankings shift.

A man of my own heart in the case of Schoenberg, the great summator and culminator who I still think has not been surpassed; but rather than go back to Bach, whose genius (to me) was very much shaped and circumscribed by his devotion to the Protestant church of the time - an era which, alone, I find difficulty in myself being able to indentify in almost the same way I am unable to identify, spiritually, psychologicaly, politically, with middle class Edwardian England.

S-A

[aeolium]

the Elgar enthusiasts often go into great rapture over (in particular !) Gerontius which I find to be pompous, overblown and has a dreadful libretto wallowing in the worst anglo-catholic nonsense. Elgar was a great composer (YES I do mean this) he wrote some great music but the religious fervour of his disciples is a bit excessive.

But that 'anglo-catholic nonsense' is intrinsic to the quality of the music, just as the texts of the 'Messiah', the B minor Mass, or the 'Creation' are to the quality of that music (texts which might be similarly dismissed by those who didn't believe in them). Why do you assume that those who respond to the music of Gerontius share the sentiments of the text, any more than those who respond to the music of those other choral works are necessarily believers, or inspired by 'religious fervour'? One doesn't have to share those sentiments to try to appreciate the music on its own terms. If it's not your cup of tea, fine, but it has attracted the admiration of quite a range of musicians, from Strauss to Britten (and had more success initially in Germany than in Britain where ironically it encountered resistance in Anglican circles to its Anglo-Catholicism).

[Colonel Danby]

We always get to sing LOHAG at the Last Night of the Proms, and it's a splendid version for choir, even it if doesn't have any real meaning anymore. But my favourite must be No 4, even if the comparisons with 'Tosca' are obvious: I'm not sure which came first, the Puccini or Elgar...a great tune anyway.

[Colonel Danby]

Precisely, Barb. A disc no-one who likes Elgar should be without!

I've got the Barbirolli 'Enigma' on LP but it's only got the 'Cockaigne' Overture tacked on to the end: perhaps a different recording, as I'm sure he did it at least twice. Nevertheless a mandatory purchase for all discerning Elgarians (EMI ASD 548).

[Serial_Apologist]

But that 'anglo-catholic nonsense' is intrinsic to the quality of the music, just as the texts of the 'Messiah', the B minor Mass, or the 'Creation' are to the quality of that music (texts which might be similarly dismissed by those who didn't believe in them). Why do you assume that those who respond to the music of Gerontius share the sentiments of the text, any more than those who respond to the music of those other choral works are necessarily believers, or inspired by 'religious fervour'? One doesn't have to share those sentiments to try to appreciate the music on its own terms. If it's not your cup of tea, fine, but it has attracted the admiration of quite a range of musicians, from Strauss to Britten (and had more success initially in Germany than in Britain where ironically it encountered resistance in Anglican circles to its Anglo-Catholicism).

I think I understand what you're saying, aeolium, but I don't reel it's my business to extrapolate one element of any particular piece of music from the rest of it for purposes of appredciating the music on its own terms. What does one mean by "the music on its own terms"? Those terms are surely as much defined - in this instance - by the libretto as by the music. The two being mutually inextricable. I for one could just about take Part 1 of "Gerontius" when I first heard this work in its entirety; it was speedily downhill from that point on for me, I'm afraid; the wisdom of hindsight then spoilt it for the beginning of the narrative, too since, as said so often by people I agree with on here, you can't extrapolate the excerpt from the context and make it meaningful other than for purposes of manipulation. And nor can one extrapolate the text. Well, I can't!

[aeolium]

I don't reel it's my business to extrapolate one element of any particular piece of music from the rest of it for purposes of appredciating the music on its own terms. What does one mean by "the music on its own terms"? Those terms are surely as much defined - in this instance - by the libretto as by the music. The two being mutually inextricable.

I quite agree, S_A - that was what I was trying to say, that the music could not be separated from the text of a choral work. By 'on its own terms' I meant appreciating the place of the text (whether or not you think it is 'nonsense') within the musical work, and the inspiration it provided to the composer - and that would be as true for Gerontius as for many other major choral works. Are you saying that the work failed for you because the poor quality of the text was reflected in the music for part 2? What do you mean by the 'wisdom of hindsight' here?

[barber olly]

Yes, the Enigma and P & C Marches were issued together (about 1976?) on a small record label that I can't remember. DG must have later acquired the recordings.

It came out on Contour, as did also RPO Dorati Beethoven 5. Both subsequently appeared on DG. The Del Mar Guildford recording featured organ and a lovely echo.

[MrGongGong]

But that 'anglo-catholic nonsense' is intrinsic to the quality of the music, just as the texts of the 'Messiah', the B minor Mass, or the 'Creation' are to the quality of that music (texts which might be similarly dismissed by those who didn't believe in them). Why do you assume that those who respond to the music of Gerontius share the sentiments of the text, any more than those who respond to the music of those other choral works are necessarily believers, or inspired by 'religious fervour'? One doesn't have to share those sentiments to try to appreciate the music on its own terms. If it's not your cup of tea, fine, but it has attracted the admiration of quite a range of musicians, from Strauss to Britten (and had more success initially in Germany than in Britain where ironically it encountered resistance in Anglican circles to its Anglo-Catholicism).

Surely what you say here is a contradiction ?
If the Text is "intrinsic" then you are also saying that you can ignore it ????

I don't believe that you have to be a believer to appreciate the B Minor mass , I don't believe in god (or even God) but think that there is plenty of sublime religious music ..........

all I said really was that (maybe UNLIKE the B Minor Mass) I find the text of Gerontius gets completely in the way of the music.
If "it's terms " include the "intrinsic" text then that surely is part of it ?
I'm not a Satanist but enjoy the music of Gorgoroth
I'm sure many great musicians love it etc etc

[aeolium]

Surely what you say here is a contradiction ?
If the Text is "intrinsic" then you are also saying that you can ignore it ????

No, I am saying the opposite - that it is inextricably linked to the music. But I don't think that then you can say 'it completely gets in the way of the music'. It is part of the music and you cannot dissociate it.