Pomp & Circumstances March No.1: Do You Like It?

[Guest]

Yes, or no - and why? :)

[Mandryka]

I mean, of course, Pomp and CircumstanCE.

[Alison]

Superb piece of orchestral music I'd say.

[salymap]

I like all five of the Marches but feel it necessary to detach one's mind from the words. No 5 is my favourite, perhaps because it has no particular associations.

[Mandryka]

I like all five of the Marches but feel it necessary to detach one's mind from the words. No 5 is my favourite, perhaps because it has no particular associations.

I have to agree with you on detaching one's mind from the words - but is that actually possible, for a UK listener, at least? Most people only know it as LOHAG, anyway, and were first introduced to it in the 'song' version.

I prefer to forget the associations and think of it as an evocation of Edwardian England (or, rather, a certain aspect of Edwardian England) - all swagger and bombast, and unashamedly so.

Mark Elder seriously went down in my estimation when he refused to conduct this work at the 1990 Proms (and was -rightly - sacked from that gig as a result). His reasoning that it would just be used as an excuse for sabre-rattling in the wake of the invasion of Kuwait just doesn't wash; methinks he was just trying to draw attention to himself.

[mercia]

these days there's a number six too, though some may find that rather Payne-ful to contemplate

[Biffo]

Mark Elder didn't refuse to conduct anything at the Last Night of the Proms - surprisingly he knew in advance what the programme would be. He suggested that a over-enthusiastic celebration might be inappropriate while our troops were in action (and potentially being killed). Our wonderful rubbish press manufactured a scandal and Elder stepped down. Elder had conducted the Last Night (including P&C No 1) before (1987) and has done so since (2006). He has no need to draw attention to himself.

[Mandryka]

Mark Elder didn't refuse to conduct anything at the Last Night of the Proms - surprisingly he knew in advance what the programme would be. He suggested that a over-enthusiastic celebration might be inappropriate while our troops were in action (and potentially being killed). Our wonderful rubbish press manufactured a scandal and Elder stepped down. Elder had conducted the Last Night (including P&C No 1) before (1987) and has done so since (2006). He has no need to draw attention to himself.

I'm pleased to hear that and apologise to Mr. Elder.

However, I'm not sure why he feared an 'over-enthusiastic celebration': in my experience, people who listen to orchestral music and pay to hear it in concert don't tend to be given to jingoism or overt celebration of nationhood. Quite the contrary, in fact.

[Nick Armstrong]

Always happy to hear P&C1 and the others in a good performance! On CD I think the recording (strangely on Deutsche Grammophon) made in 1975 in Guildford Cathedral by Norman Del Mar and the RPO knocks the spots off any others I have heard

[amateur51]

Always happy to hear P&C1 and the others in a good performance! On CD I think the recording (strangely on Deutsche Grammophon) made in 1975 in Guildford Cathedral by Norman Del Mar and the RPO knocks the spots off any others I have heard

Thanks a million for reminding me of the much-missed maestro Norman Del Mar, Caliban

He wrote (at least) a fascinating book on the instruments of the orchestra which, for one who can only play a paper & comb, is endlessly informative.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anatomy-Orchestra-Norman-Del-Mar/dp/0571250998/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322397777&sr=8-1

Maybe memories of Maestro Del Mar deserves a thread all his own?

[Pabmusic]

I prefer to forget the associations and think of it as an evocation of Edwardian England (or, rather, a certain aspect of Edwardian England) - all swagger and bombast, and unashamedly so.

I like this piece very much, but not with any words. Elgar didn't write it with words, and when he did set the big tune to A C Benson's words, he rewrote the piece, either as the finale of the Coronation Ode, or as the song Land of Hope. He never added words to the march. I have conducted it without singing, but I had quite a battle with the orchestra's committee to get them to agree, so ingrained are the words. I recall Alex Gibson doing it this way at the Usher Hall, and he had to ask the audience in advance not to sing.

The fame of the big tune has perhaps obscured the rest of the march. The opening two sections show a restlessness that is far removed from any feeling of complacency. Neither rhythm nor tonality settles well until the trio begins. Elgar enjoyed jokes and was always amused that he had begun his march ‘in D major’ with a unison E♭throughout the orchestra. There is also a subtle change to the rhythm of the big tune the last time it comes, which is lost if words are sung.

It was dedicated to Alfred Rodewald, who I believe had been Hans Richter's only conducting pupil, and who gave the first performance, at New Brighton with the Liverpool Orchestral Society. The supreme irony is that both this piece and Nimrod were dedicated to close friends who were both German.

[Mandryka]

I like this piece very much, but not with any words. Elgar didn't write it with words, and when he did set the big tune to A C Benson's words, he rewrote the piece, either as the finale of the Coronation Ode, or as the song Land of Hope. He never added words to the march. I have conducted it without singing, but I had quite a battle with the orchestra's committee to get them to agree, so ingrained are the words. I recall Alex Gibson doing it this way at the Usher Hall, and he had to ask the audience in advance not to sing.

The fame of the big tune has perhaps obscured the rest of the march. The opening two sections show a restlessness that is far removed from any feeling of complacency. Neither rhythm nor tonality settles well until the trio begins. Elgar enjoyed jokes and was always amused that he had begun his march ‘in D major’ with a unison E♭throughout the orchestra. There is also a subtle change to the rhythm of the big tune the last time it comes, which is lost if words are sung.

It was dedicated to Alfred Rodewald, who I believe had been Hans Richter's only conducting pupil, and who gave the first performance, at New Brighton with the Liverpool Orchestral Society. The supreme irony is that both this piece and Nimrod were dedicated to close friends who were both German.

Thanks for that, pabmusic: there's a lot there I didn't know. :)

I think you're right about the restlessness of the opening and middle sections - we can make our own minds up as to what this restlessness pertains to? An Empire restless to extend its borders, perhaps? Or a liberal country restless to improve itself, so ALL can share in the goodies of its martime wealth? Or both?

I particularly lke the section that begins at aroun 01:30 and reappears at the four and a half minute mark (excuse lack of musical terms).

My favourite recording is, oddly enough, by Sir Georg Solti and the LPO: Sir Georg was never a man who looked down on a bit of healthy vulgarity and he really goes for the jugular of this piece with particular East European vigour, yet renders entirely idiomatic results. For a man who claimed to never 'get' the English, he rather shows our native conductors up, I think. Not once is the Hungarian army evoked! :)

[Biffo]

Mandryka: I was wrong on one point, Elder was actually sacked, by John Drummond. In the words of the Manchester Evening News reporting his knighthood:

'The recognition comes as a particular vindication for Mark, who was attacked for a supposed lack of patriotism over a comment on the contents of the Last Night of the Proms which he was to conduct in 1990, during the first Gulf War.

The BBC caved into pressure and dropped him. But he was invited back in 2006 and conducted one of the most successful Last Nights ever'

You are right, orchestral concerts 'don't tend to be given to jingoism or overt celebration of nationhood' but the Last Night is just that. It can be a very enjoyable occasion but Elder thought a more muted celebration would be in order while we were at war.

After many years I gave up on the Last Night, not because of the jingoism etc but the schlock that now seems an integral part of it. If I want P&C No 1 I have an excellent performance of it by Sir John Barbirolli (and the other four marches); for LOHG I have the 'Coronation Ode' (Ledger) with the words in their first (slightly less jingoistic) incarnation. For the familiar version, I have it sung by Kathleen Ferrier (Barbirolli again) and she almost makes you believe in the jingoistic old tosh.

[Mandryka]

Mandryka: I was wrong on one point, Elder was actually sacked, by John Drummond. In the words of the Manchester Evening News reporting his knighthood:

'The recognition comes as a particular vindication for Mark, who was attacked for a supposed lack of patriotism over a comment on the contents of the Last Night of the Proms which he was to conduct in 1990, during the first Gulf War.

The BBC caved into pressure and dropped him. But he was invited back in 2006 and conducted one of the most successful Last Nights ever'

You are right, orchestral concerts 'don't tend to be given to jingoism or overt celebration of nationhood' but the Last Night is just that. It can be a very enjoyable occasion but Elder thought a more muted celebration would be in order while we were at war.

After many years I gave up on the Last Night, not because of the jingoism etc but the schlock that now seems an integral part of it. If I want P&C No 1 I have an excellent performance of it by Sir John Barbirolli (and the other four marches); for LOHG I have the 'Coronation Ode' (Ledger) with the words in their first (slightly less jingoistic) incarnation. For the familiar version, I have it sung by Kathleen Ferrier (Barbirolli again) and she almost makes you believe in the jingoistic old tosh.

I've never understood why 'patriotism' has to be inexplicably bound up with gunboats, the army and other such military one-upmanship.

I'm no flag-waver, but I see nothing wrong in taking some degree of pride in your country's peaceful achievements, even if it's all a bit meaningless when all is said and done (and, for the record, I think of myself as 'European' rather than British or English).

In fact, if Elder had made comments along those lines in the Conductor's Speech which he never got to deliver, I don't see how he could have been accused of a lack of patriotism.

[Barbirollians]

Indeed she does through the terrible recording quality .

Coincidentally , I was thinking about old Norman del Mar last night when listening to the lovely performance of Serenade for Strings he conducted now coupled with Barbirolli's symphonies . He conducted as I recall it a raved about Enigma on DG - perhaps that was coupled with the P & C that Caliban refers to ?