BBC4 "Symphony" with Simon Russell Beale

[EnemyoftheStoat]

I recall that Colditz was a BBC co-production with WGBH Boston or somebody so maybe that accounted for the presence of Robert Wagner.

As for the presence of US prisoners, I believe there were some very late in WWII, if only because the Colditz boardgame (does anyone remember playing it?) reflects this with a contingent of pieces representing US POWs.

[gurnemanz]

....Possibly in the hope that an enterprising US network or station might buy the series? (The BBC tried something similar years ago when they gave Robert Wagner a leading role in 'Colditz' - as far as I know, the place never contained any American prisoners - in the hope of selling the series States-side. The ploy didn't work).

The same occurred to me. Also, including Copland gave them a chance to play something American and famous: Fanfare for the Common Man.

I was disappointed to hear Simon Russell Beale refer to a conductor called "Fertwengler".

[Barbirollians]

I don't dislike Ives at all but I think he was given a wholly disproportionate prominence in the series when Mendelssohn, Schumann, Nielsen and Prokofiev were ignored .

[Boilk]

I don't dislike Ives at all but I think he was given a wholly disproportionate prominence in the series when Mendelssohn, Schumann, Nielsen and Prokofiev were ignored .

I think it was more a case of acknowledging America in the 20th century episode (an expansion of the Euro-centric 18th and 19th centuries). If Copland hadn't included his Fanfare in the Third symphony he might have been ommitted altogether (like the other popular guy Bernstein). As good as Copland's Dance Symphony is, there's no way he can be considered a symphonist of the same stature as his contemporary Roger Sessions. But of course the latter - rated by many in America as its finest symphonist to date - isn't exactly mainstream.

[Suffolkcoastal]

After many years of studying the American symphony, I still find it among the most complex and fascinating areas of musical history, the variety of influences on it and the variety of responses it ultimately resulted in. Sessions is among the finest and most interesting symphonists of the 20th century, the evolution of his mature style could be the subject of a very large dissertation and inspite of its complexity is instantly recogniseable. I heard Nicholas Kenyon having a dig at Schuman and Mennin on Saturday, Kenyon's dislike of much less radical American composers has been known for a while, but the little dig I thought was rather silly. Schuman's symphonies are very fine examples of symphonic writing, the 6th and 9th symphonies in particular show a very individual take on symphonic form and Mennin's works have a striking energy and an enviable command of counterpoint.

I am often intrigued by the influence of Roussel on composers such as Piston and Diamond, and Piston's are also very classical (in the 18th century sense). My love of and fascination with Harris's music is well known so I don't need to elaborate here. Then there other very individual composers like Wallingford Riegger whose 3rd and 4th symphonies are again worth further study. I think I could easily put on several programmes on the American Symphony for R3, they of course wouldn't be suitable for BBC4 and the British Symphony too!

[aeolium]

I think I could easily put on several programmes on the American Symphony for R3, they of course wouldn't be suitable for BBC4 and the British Symphony too!

I for one would be very interested to hear such programmes, Suffolkcoastal, as it's a subject about which I'm mainly ignorant.

[Roehre]

After many years of studying the American symphony, I still find it among the most complex and fascinating areas of musical history, the variety of influences on it and the variety of responses it ultimately resulted in. Sessions is among the finest and most interesting symphonists of the 20th century, the evolution of his mature style could be the subject of a very large dissertation and inspite of its complexity is instantly recogniseable. I heard Nicholas Kenyon having a dig at Schuman and Mennin on Saturday, Kenyon's dislike of much less radical American composers has been known for a while, but the little dig I thought was rather silly. Schuman's symphonies are very fine examples of symphonic writing, the 6th and 9th symphonies in particular show a very individual take on symphonic form and Mennin's works have a striking energy and an enviable command of counterpoint.

I am often intrigued by the influence of Roussel on composers such as Piston and Diamond, and Piston's are also very classical (in the 18th century sense). My love of and fascination with Harris's music is well known so I don't need to elaborate here. Then there other very individual composers like Wallingford Riegger whose 3rd and 4th symphonies are again worth further study. I think I could easily put on several programmes on the American Symphony for R3, they of course wouldn't be suitable for BBC4 and the British Symphony too!

I heard Nicholas Kenyon having a dig at Schuman and Mennin on Saturday, Kenyon's dislike of much less radical American composers has been known for a while, but the little dig I thought was rather silly.

As I did

About Schuman: SC, have you got a clue whether his pre-third symphonies (nos.1 and 2 therefore) still do exist?

[Suffolkcoastal]

Schuman's 1st & 2nd Symphonies do still exist Roehre. I have an off-air recording of the 2nd Symphony's 2nd performance from 1937. A few years ago to my shock I discovered a score of the 2nd symphony in of all places the Henry Watson Memorial Library in Manchester. I saw it on the reserve catalogue listing, thought it must be an error so asked to look at it and lo behold it was indeed the 2nd symphony. What is more amazing is that the 2nd symphony wasnever published, the copyist must have been one of Schirmer's employees at the time as it has a similar style to some of Harris's scores of the period published by Schirmer. I contacted the Schuman Trust who contacted the family who were happy to have the score remain in Manchester which I hope is still the case. It is quite a compact one movement work lasting around the same length as Harris's 3rd, the note C is sounding throughout almost the entire length of the work. I think one early reviewer said it made him give up on aspirin tablets afterwards (or something to this effect). The C can be very instrusive at times and the largely unrelieved tension could cuase a few headaches! I can understand why Schuman withdrew it after the 2 performances, but still think it is worth reviving. The 1st symphony is I believe still in manuscript and was scored for 18 instruments and I would be very intrigued to hear it.

[Roehre]

Many thanks SC

[Suffolkcoastal]

I should have mentioned above that this year was the 50th Anniversary of Riegger's death. Nothing by Riegger has been played on R3 in the almost three years I've been conducting my survey. Mind you Hovhaness, whose music is much less 'scary' than Riegger's has has just two pieces played in this his centenary year.

[kernelbogey]

This series is being repeated at present. I missed it before and have just enjoyed the first programme via iPlayer. Rather too much footage of modern cities and traffic, but the OAE sounds in fine form and I liked Simon Russell Beale's commentary. There were several interesting portraits of composers shown that I hadn't seen before, particularly one of Mozart. Looking forward to the rest of this series.

[Roehre]

Watching it now again, after doing so using my skybox recordings, I think it's not bad at all, given the complexity of the subject and the enormous choice of material to decide to be in- or excluded.
Snippets are unavoidable I'm afraid, even in the sometimes very minuscule size as offered here.

[kernelbogey]

Just watched the latest episode (Wagner (sic), Brahms, Sibelius, Dvorak, Mahler) on iPlayer and enjoyed it very much. Simon R-B is a good presenter, and it's a nice touch that he sometimes picks out a few tunes on the piano.

I wonder what the musicians and conductors on the Boards think of Mark Elder's style of conducting. I'm not a musician - but I'm rather surprised by what appears to be the absence of a clear beat. There are a few seconds of Colin Davis conducting Sibelius and his beat is very clear.

Just asking....

[Chris Newman]

Just watched the latest episode (Wagner (sic), Brahms, Sibelius, Dvorak, Mahler) on iPlayer and enjoyed it very much. Simon R-B is a good presenter, and it's a nice touch that he sometimes picks out a few tunes on the piano.

I wonder what the musicians and conductors on the Boards think of Mark Elder's style of conducting. I'm not a musician - but I'm rather surprised by what appears to be the absence of a clear beat. There are a few seconds of Colin Davis conducting Sibelius and his beat is very clear.

Just asking....

But they both sing on the beat.

[kernelbogey]

But they both sing on the beat.

Given the luxury of many close-up shots of Mark Elder conducting, I noticed how expressively he used his face, eyes etc to communicate. I also noticed that some members of the BBCSO really kept their eyes on him, though perhaps that was a bit of a setup for the cameras .

After my previous post I read the whole thread. I thought Mark Elder an engaging, if somewhat intense, exponent of the music in his one-to-ones with SRB (I wouldn't want to get stuck in a corner at a party with ME ). Disagreeing with those who found the series disappointing, I think it was quite good entertainment for a non-specialist audience, and I learned a few things despite decades of interest in the symphony. I found the visit to Dvorak's house particularly moving.