Music notation

[Dave2002]

This video is really rather interesting -

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It is indeed interesting, but it’s much easier to follow the argument without the distraction of the doodling.

[Mandryka]

Anyone read Thomas Kelly’s book? Maybe it could be my summer beach book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Capturing-Music-Thomas-Forrest-Kelly/dp/0393064964

[Pulcinella]

There's a lovely anecdote in the book on Martinu's symphonies that I'm reading.

Apparently, he had a preference for using regular, consistent time signatures, claiming that they were easier for players and conductor alike, one of his favourites being 6/8, though with the risk that that created phrasing/stresses where he didn't want them (leanings into the 'main' beat).
But when years later he wrote down that glorious tune from the trio in the fourth symphony, he notated it (from memory) in phrases of seven quavers (crotchet, crotchet, quaver, crotchet), quite independent from the prevailing time signature he'd used earlier!

[Serial_Apologist]

There's a lovely anecdote in the book on Martinu's symphonies that I'm reading.

Apparently, he had a preference for using regular, consistent time signatures, claiming that they were easier for players and conductor alike, one of his favourites being 6/8, though with the risk that that created phrasing/stresses where he didn't want them (leanings into the 'main' beat).
But when years later he wrote down that glorious tune from the trio in the fourth symphony, he notated it (from memory) in phrases of seven quavers (crotchet, crotchet, quaver, crotchet), quite independent from the prevailing time signature he'd used earlier!

If I remember correctly, Constant Lambert re-arranged Walton's overture Portsmouth Point in common time, claiming that Walton's complex time signature switches could be just as easily detected by ear but more easily performed in 4/4!

[Dave2002]

4/4 doesn't always work well though. Sometimes it is necessary to use different time signatures, or put in a few transitional bars to shorten or lengthen a phrase.

[RichardB]

If I remember correctly, Constant Lambert re-arranged Walton's overture Portsmouth Point in common time, claiming that Walton's complex time signature switches could be just as easily detected by ear but more easily performed in 4/4!

Almost all of Xenakis's music is in 4/4 throughout, although very little of it sounds as if it is. One reason for not doing things that way in non-metrical music would be so that people don't get lost - you see the conductor beat a 3/16 bar and you think ok, we must be at bar 362 or whatever, whereas if the conductor is just beating the same thing throughout, if you get lost you're more likely to stay lost. This is the approach I've usually taken, so that the conducted metre is related to the warp and weft of the underlying structure rather than remaining consistent. On the other hand, my present work in progress takes the opposite approach and has long stretches where the conducted metre doesn't change. Will this make it more comprehensible to performers? We shall see.

[Rolmill]

There's a lovely anecdote in the book on Martinu's symphonies that I'm reading.

Pulcinella, may I ask whether that is Michael Crump's book and if so whether you would recommend it?

[Pulcinella]

Pulcinella, may I ask whether that is Michael Crump's book and if so whether you would recommend it?

It is, and the answer is yes, but qualified by the fact that although I've had it a while I'm still only up to the start of Chapter 5 (The Harmonic Style), and with Chapter 6 being Texture and Orchestration I haven't yet got into the real meat of the book. There are lots of musical examples, which I'm sure will help when I get to the symphony chapters. The early chapters deal with other (earlier) symphonic (but not concerto/concertante) works, and there are also chapters called Between the Symphonies and Beyond the Symphonies. I haven't noticed examples of the type of conjecture that annoy me so much in books about older composers (Maybe Byrd and Tallis shared a pint together in the local pub sort of stuff ). If Martinu and his music appeal, then go for it, but you need a hefty wallet (even second hand I paid £40) and a hefty pair of arms: it's printed on glossy paper and is very heavy. When I first mentioned that I'd bought it I remember RichardB saying he'd be interested in reading it too.

PS: I see it's available new at a price less than I paid.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Martinu-Symphony-Symphonic-Studies-Michael/dp/0907689655/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3NSNELMCAFYHG&keywords=Crump+martinu&qid=1691937158&s=books&sprefix=crump+martinu%2Cstripbooks%2C68&sr=1-1

[Rolmill]

Thanks Pulcinella, I'll seriously consider this - though it is, as you say, a hefty tome and I'm not quite sure how I'll find the time to read it!

[Dave2002]

PS: I see it's available new at a price less than I paid.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Martinu-Sym...ks%2C68&sr=1-1

Is this perhaps now one for Inter Library Loans? Not sure - I have had some success with ILLs recently. Trying to persuade our library to buy new and seriously good books is pretty hopeless - though I guess if I wanted an Ian Rankin or Val McDermid copy I'd have no problem - but anything with real substance just doesn't go down well with the bean counters apparently as "there's no call for it ..". However putting in ILL requests has proved to be successful on several occasions, and then gives me more information about whether it's worth paying a high price for my own copy, or just getting what I can out of each loan period. So far I've had a few books this way, but have at last put in an order for one of them having decided that even at over £60 it might be worth having.

[Pulcinella]

Is this perhaps now one for Inter Library Loans? Not sure - I have had some success with ILLs recently. Trying to persuade our library to buy new and seriously good books is pretty hopeless - though I guess if I wanted an Ian Rankin or Val McDermid copy I'd have no problem - but anything with real substance just doesn't go down well with the bean counters apparently as "there's no call for it ..". However putting in ILL requests has proved to be successful on several occasions, and then gives me more information about whether it's worth paying a high price for my own copy, or just getting what I can out of each loan period. So far I've had a few books this way, but have at last put in an order for one of them having decided that even at over £60 it might be worth having.

We are perhaps lucky here in that the University of York has (recently) opened up its collection FREE to residents of the city, so I can browse and borrow from there. I did so with Paul Spicer's book on Howells (and might wait to see if they get his new book on Bliss).