John Gilhooly speech: How to Save Music

[kernelbogey]

Martin mentioned on Breakfast today that John Gilhooly is to give a speech, foreshadowed with an article in today's Sunday Times (paywall) enitled How to Save Music.

It sounded as though this is an important contribution to the debate - is there one yet? - about the future of classical music here in UK.

[kernelbogey]

Thanks to another boarder here I now have a link to a copy of the interview by Alexandra Coghlan with Gilhooly in the ST.

This gives an impression of his argument, although it's not the text of the speech he will deliver on Tuesday at the Royal Philharmonic Society awards, as I had supposed.

[RichardB]

Thank you very much for that, kernelbogey.

He states the issue in very clear and concise terms: cuts in support to organisations promoting classical music are "justified" on the grounds that it's elitist, and cuts in support to music at schools will have the inevitable effect of making it ever more so. It's easy to make the case for this music as elitist if you are making efforts to ensure that it is. Gilhooly says this is a symptom of a lack of "joined-up thinking", but it seems to me that it could equally be seen as very much joined-up, in the same sense that running down public services as a preparation for privatisation is not a failure of government policy but exactly what it sets out to achieve. I very much hope that his speech to the RPS has some effect, but the present government is hardly likely to change course now, and the leaders of what is expected to be the next one seem to be spending a great deal of effort making sure that people's expectations of it are as low as can be managed.

[Master Jacques]

Art music has indeed been on the ropes for some decades, but only partly through the conscious populism adopted of governments of all stripes. The influence of 'high art' generally (taking the term to mean the production of artefacts, which require time and effort from the 'consumers' produced by today's social organisation) has declined to the point where it is becoming an arcane pursuit, rather like the monkish studies of the Dark Ages. The poet and artist David Jones saw this UK movement gathering head, as far back as the 1950s.

Under the cosh from science, medicine and technology - all of which make slicker cases for what state funding there is, calculated to appeal to people who don't see art-for-all as part of a healthy society - music will have little alternative but to go underground, and start rebuilding in its own way, independent of government support and mass audiences.

One look at the list of "classical composers" (what?!) invited to contribute to this year's Coronation tells us everything. Compare this insult to today's art music practitioners against the 1953 list, which had the likes of Vaughan Williams, Bax, Walton, Britten, Bliss, Ireland and Howells represented, among others. It is another barometer of irreversible decline.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Art music has indeed been on the ropes for some decades, but only partly through the conscious populism adopted of governments of all stripes. The influence of 'high art' generally (taking the term to mean the production of artefacts, which require time and effort from the 'consumers' produced by today's social organisation) has declined to the point where it is becoming an arcane pursuit, rather like the monkish studies of the Dark Ages. The poet and artist David Jones saw this UK movement gathering head, as far back as the 1950s.

Under the cosh from science, medicine and technology - all of which make slicker cases for what state funding there is, calculated to appeal to people who don't see art-for-all as part of a healthy society - music will have little alternative but to go underground, and start rebuilding in its own way, independent of government support and mass audiences.

One look at the list of "classical composers" (what?!) invited to contribute to this year's Coronation tells us everything. Compare this insult to today's art music practitioners against the 1953 list, which had the likes of Vaughan Williams, Bax, Walton, Britten, Bliss, Ireland and Howells represented, among others. It is another barometer of irreversible decline.

All true of course . At the risk of sounding like F.R Leavis the damage has come from within. The cultural arbiters , with rare exceptions like JG , don’t really believe that one piece of music is “better “ than another. The phrase “ better” is shot through with western / European/colonial assumptions etc. Once you believe that Andrew Lloyd Webber is no better or worse than Thomas Ades than why not Commission the more popular?
We’ve just had Bobby Mcferrin on Radio 3 and Frank Sinatra is imminent. I am huge fans of both ( went to see the former live once) but their art is not the same as Janet Baker’s or Mark Padmore’s and the music they sing is not in the same league as Schubert’s.
Incidentally I don't think we have as strong a list of living composers now as we did In 1953 . That might not be due to cultural decline - these things go in phases .What is extraordinary is that the good ones that are alive have been ignored.

[Master Jacques]

Incidentally I don't think we have as strong a list of living composers now as we did In 1953 . That might not be due to cultural decline - these things go in phases .What is extraordinary is that the good ones that are alive have been ignored.

It takes something to shock me, but I was deeply saddened by this Coronation list. It is possible of course, given the change in standing of the monarchy itself (in amongst the other changes you rightly list) that some of our leading names refused to contribute. I wonder if that might be true for Ades, for instance. The omission of James Macmillan also looks glaring. But who knows?

It is wise of you to remind us that these things go in cycles; though I can't offhand come up with a single country producing Western art music where composition is doing better now than it was in 1953. By "doing better", I mean turning out growing quantities of interesting work, with or without government subsidies. We could certainly be doing far better in musical education, of course: you'd think that the social positives of starting all children off in choral activity would be apparent enough, from the examples of (e.g.) Finland and Estonia.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It takes something to shock me, but I was deeply saddened by this Coronation list. It is possible of course, given the change in standing of the monarchy itself (in amongst the other changes you rightly list) that some of our leading names refused to contribute. I wonder if that might be true for Ades, for instance. The omission of James Macmillan also looks glaring. But who knows?

It is wise of you to remind us that these things go in cycles; though I can't offhand come up with a single country producing Western art music where composition is doing better now than it was in 1953. By "doing better", I mean turning out growing quantities of interesting work, with or without government subsidies. We could certainly be doing far better in musical education, of course: you'd think that the social positives of starting all children off in choral activity would be apparent enough, from the examples of (e.g.) Finland and Estonia.

All the evidence through history (he said massively generalising ) is that artists need either patronage or public appreciation , discriminating opinion and support to survive and thrive. The lucky ones like Wagner and Britten had both .Now patronage is rather grudgingly given and the public is largely indifferent. I do think we have ourselves to blame though.

[RichardB]

Incidentally I don't think we have as strong a list of living composers now as we did In 1953.

I have to say I disagree strongly with that, although, admittedly, the names I might come up with would be people who would run a mile from any coronation commission! They would also, in many cases, not be the kind of people whose work would appear in the context of "classical music" showcases like the Proms, but that is the fault of an establishment which seems sometimes to be doing its best to live up to the accusations of irrelevance and elitism we're talking about in this thread. The terrain on which music is being written is constantly changing, so that musical media that were previously thought of as central, like symphonic works or opera, have become increasingly marginal in the minds of many composers, apart once more from those whose approach is basically retrospective and thus feeds into an establishment agenda. This morning I was alerted to a new release (on the very interesting Bandcamp label Scatter Archives) of electronic compositions by the Oxford-based pianist and composer Pat Thomas (b 1960) and thinking to myself this is really fascinating and fresh and original contemporary music, and hardly anyone is going to know it exists. Before diagnosing an "irreversible decline" in music being produced in the UK I would suggest that it's necessary to dig somewhat deeper to find out what's actually going on!

[Master Jacques]

All the evidence through history (he said massively generalising ) is that artists need either patronage or public appreciation , discriminating opinion and support to survive and thrive. The lucky ones like Wagner and Britten had both .Now patronage is rather grudgingly given and the public is largely indifferent. I do think we have ourselves to blame though.

The public has perhaps always been largely indifferent, indeed - taking the attitude that if popular musicians can make a living, then art music ought to be able to stand on its own two feet likewise. Thus the (almost) constant need for subsidy or patronage. The difference now, is that we have lost the political consensus that the high arts are worth having at all: once that's gone, it is very hard to get the consensus back. For most of us on this forum, for example, "modern music" is something that came along over 100 years ago, aspects of which still have not been assimilated into wider society. Somewhere music lost touch, and that may be irreversible, until the next civilisation comes along.

[RichardB]

Somewhere music lost touch

Music has carried on along its various ways, in the hands of creative artists responding to their tradition and their time. Somewhere, commercial considerations took over, so that the measure of "quality" in musical composition is how many people are listening to it, and how many people are listening to it is a function of how easily it can be marketed, and anything outside that cycle is assumed to have "lost touch". History is littered with examples of musicians, from J S Bach downwards, who under 21st century conditions would have been called "out of touch".

[Ein Heldenleben]

Music has carried on along its various ways, in the hands of creative artists responding to their tradition and their time. Somewhere, commercial considerations took over, so that the measure of "quality" in musical composition is how many people are listening to it, and how many people are listening to it is a function of how easily it can be marketed, and anything outside that cycle is assumed to have "lost touch". History is littered with examples of musicians, from J S Bach downwards, who under 21st century conditions would have been called "out of touch".

I’m not so sure about that. It’s never been easier for artists to find an audience - at least digitally. If the audience isn’t interested it can’t just be blamed on marketing , commercial pressures or public taste. I think what he have now is much more complex - very many niche audiences. It’s possible for a popular musician / performer to make a reasonable living with about 5 to 10,000 loyal followers. There’s a big youthful audience for contemporary dance even when the score is by more demanding composers like Lutoslawski but for some reason less interest in more demanding contemporary music.
Since lockdown it’s been evident that the live audience for more traditional classical fare is falling as well. I don’t think it has much to do with marketing or commercial pressures at all. I think it’s more to do with the dominance of visual culture. We live in a screen dominated culture .Young people expect pictures with music - be it gaming , film or ballet. The popularity of Matthew Bourne , the Ballet Ramberts Peaky Blinders etc., the extraordinary commercial success of artists like Hirst and Gerhard Richter. It’s all about the power of the image.

[JasonPalmer]

Music for films.....would a modern day Mozart be in Hollywood ?

[RichardB]

It’s never been easier for artists to find an audience

That unfortunately is a myth. Yes, everything is available, but "finding an audience" in that kind of environment is no easier than it ever has been before, believe me, particularly with algorithms pushing things at you (on Youtube for example) based on what you've listened to before, and not on what you don't yet know you might like to listen to. As for concert audiences in 2023, that varies enormously according to where you are in the world. Where I am, audiences for orchestral music are at least back to pre-pandemic levels, whereas in other countries the figure is indeed relatively low.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Music for films.....would a modern day Mozart be in Hollywood ?

Well let’s put it this way Nobuo Uematsu‘s net worth is estimated at between $5 million and $ 48 million dollars and Mozart died broke.

Uematsu’s classic Final Fantasy main theme sounds like it was written by Eric Coates for a British forties film.

Conclusion forget films Amadeus -go into games.

[Bryn]

That unfortunately is a myth. Yes, everything is available, but "finding an audience" in that kind of environment is no easier than it ever has been before, believe me, particularly with algorithms pushing things at you (on Youtube for example) based on what you've listened to before, and not on what you don't yet know you might like to listen to. As for concert audiences in 2023, that varies enormously according to where you are in the world. Where I am, audiences for orchestral music are at least back to pre-pandemic levels, whereas in other countries the figure is indeed relatively low.

The deterioration of public transport facilities in the UK has not helped, either, and I am not thinking of just the impact of the entirely called-for industrial action by rail workers, but the severe loss of bus routes and journeys, too.