Songs in other languages.

[Rover_KE]

What's the point of playing recordings of songs in other languages? Even with A-level French I can barely recognise anything but the odd word, and they clearly can't be literal translations of the English words as these wouldn't fit the the metre or rhyme scheme of the melody.

There'd be more sense in providing translations of the foreign lyrics back into English so we could appraise the translator's skill (or lack of it) in faithfully rendering the original meaning into their own language.

[teamsaint]

What's the point of playing recordings of songs in other languages? Even with A-level French I can barely recognise anything but the odd word, and they clearly can't be literal translations of the English words as these wouldn't fit the the metre or rhyme scheme of the melody.

There'd be more sense in providing translations of the foreign lyrics back into English so we could appraise the translator's skill (or lack of it) in faithfully rendering the original meaning into their own language.

Here you go.One of the world’s great websites IMO.

https://www.lieder.net/

And I mean that. It is truly extraordinary, and perfect for those of us with O level French as the height of our achievements in the languages of the world.

[french frank]

What's the point of playing recordings of songs in other languages?

I think you can consider the voice as being a separate instrument. A French singer adds a Frenchness absent from a German lieder singer, just as composers of instrumental music can have a 'Frenchness'. The music can mean what you imagine it to mean (words are often a bit of a let-down). Hopefully the music itself gives you a clue to the general mood or emotion. The woodsman setting out and finding a poor injured animal in a snare verges on prose (figurative).

[Serial_Apologist]

Take me to your Lieder will do me fine.

[smittims]

I was tempted so say 'what's the point of translating song lyrics into another language?' What you get is essentially a arrangement.

I think it much better to hear the language the composer set. In the case of Lieder, the vocabulary isn't very extensive, and it's worth learning the German to get closer to the essence of the song.

[Mandryka]

What's the point of playing recordings of songs in other languages? Even with A-level French I can barely recognise anything but the odd word, and they clearly can't be literal translations of the English words as these wouldn't fit the the metre or rhyme scheme of the melody.

There'd be more sense in providing translations of the foreign lyrics back into English so we could appraise the translator's skill (or lack of it) in faithfully rendering the original meaning into their own language.

Strangely enough this has been on my mind this weekend. There's a new recording of songs from Machaut's Le Rèmede de Fortune (By Orlando consort). I can understand sung French quite well, but less so 14th century sung French. And the music is challenging, because the songs are rather long, strophic, monophonic, solo and a cappella - originally understanding them would have been essential, I'm sure.

Now for my punch line: I'm really enjoying the CD, even though I have practically no idea what they're singing about. At a musical level it works -- and a human voice can be expressive in some broad brush emotional sense, even if you don't understand the sense of what's being uttered.

By the way, re teamsaint's point about translation, that's a really valid point in some early music. Some songs have three people singing different words in different languages with different tunes, all at the same time. The result is pretty complex and it's quite hard for anyone to make sense of what's being said, even a fluent native speaker. Some historians of music think that, back in the 14th and 15th century, the texts would have been presented straight first, maybe just recited without music.

[Serial_Apologist]

Now for my punch line: I'm really enjoying the CD, even though I have practically no idea what they're singing about. At a musical level it works -- and a human voice can be expressive in some broad brush emotional sense, even if you don't understand the sense of what's being uttered.

There have been fascinating studies made into the inter-relationship between words and music - differences detectable for instance between French, German and Italian 19th century opera (which would obviously extend into song forms). Most I have not bothered to read, although Alexander Goehr's brilliant pre-amble in a chapter devoted to developments leading up to Schoenberg's 12-tone period offer a useful entree by way of the latter's resort to texts during the "free atonal" period and how that related to the Austro-Germanic tradition's dealing with time and rhythm, as compared to eg Debussy's and the French tradition.

[Rover_KE]

Thanks to all who replied with some interesting references which I'll investigate later.

However, I was referring rather to Breakfast's latest new feature of playing songs of a lighter nature in foreign language versions, such as this morning's examples: Anything Goes and It Might As Well Be Spring.

[Quarky]

Thanks to all who replied with some interesting references which I'll investigate later.

However, I was referring rather to Breakfast's latest new feature of playing songs of a lighter nature in foreign language versions, such as this morning's examples: Anything Goes and It Might As Well Be Spring.

Courtesy of Wikipedia::
Dearie moved to Paris in 1952. She formed a vocal group, the Blue Stars (1952–1955),[1][5] which included Michel Legrand's sister, Christiane, and Bob Dorough. In 1954, the group had a hit in France with a French-language version of "Lullaby of Birdland",[1] arranged by Michel Legrand.[6] The Blue Stars would later evolve into the Swingle Singers.[6] On Dearie's first solo album, released two years later, she played the piano but did not sing.[4]

In 1954, Dearie and King Pleasure recorded "Moody's Mood for Love" (a vocal adaptation by Eddie Jefferson of a James Moody sax solo for "I'm in the Mood for Love") and this is so noted on the Prestige album King Pleasure Sings. One of Dearie's most famous song recordings from that period is "The Riviera", with music by Cy Coleman and lyrics by Joseph McCarthy, in 1956.[4]

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

However, I was referring rather to Breakfast's latest new feature of playing songs of a lighter nature in foreign language versions, such as this morning's examples: Anything Goes and It Might As Well Be Spring.

Whatever the language, these should moved to Radio 2

[Serial_Apologist]

Good heading for an interesting albeit less focussed discussion, however.

[Quarky]

Excuse a few less focussed thoughts, but it is a topic which interests me (in my non-expert way).

If it had been broadcast on Radio 2, possibly the listeners would have found it too much to absorb. However it was broadcast on Radio 3, a classical music programme, where, as Suffolkcoastal's thread shows, the vast majority of items are non-UK originating. I would assume that the majority of vocal items broadcast are also in a foreign language. R3 listeners are conditioned to listen to foreign languages, whether or not they fully appreciate them.

In the post-war period, the early 50's, in terms of popular music, there was a great flow of French popular chansons to the US popular market, where they were rebranded. Some of the lyrics were translated and turned out more or less somewhat similar (Autumn Leaves), but some were completely rewritten, and with a different sentiment ( Trenet/ Que reste t'il de nos amours went to I wish you love / Cole, Shearing, and La Mer became Beyond the Sea/ Darin). The Blossom Dearie number was an example of flow in reverse from the US to France.

Of course the Rock and Roll movement, with greatly simplified lyrics, hit this interflow on the head. However, I don't know whether there has resulted an increase of understanding for the listener. I still have difficulty in appreciating exactly the words of Beyonce's songs!

[Pulcinella]

Good heading for an interesting albeit less focussed discussion, however.

Maybe change it?

Songs in other than their original language

[Serial_Apologist]

Maybe change it?

Songs in other than their original language

I think it's OK as it is.