Gilbert & Sullivan: Exclusively For ‘The Elderly’?

[hmvman]

The University of York seems to have a very active G&S Society:

https://yusu.org/activities/view/gil...llivan-society

That's been going for many years. York Opera (amateur company) perform G&S operas every so often. I was told by a member of the company that they do them to get bums on seats, so there is, presumably, still an appetite for it amongst the public, at least here in York. The York Opera productions are generally pretty good and they do insert topical references into the script.

I think a lot of amateur productions doggedly follow the old D'Oyly Carte stage directions and might perhaps benefit from trying a different approach.

[Serial_Apologist]

Am I right in thinking G&S were popular with the Victorian working classes?

[Master Jacques]

Am I right in thinking G&S were popular with the Victorian working classes?

A good question. Of course, if the question relates to original Savoy audiences, the answer is a definite "yes" - the gallery at the Savoy was priced sufficiently low to welcome all comers, provided they behaved and dressed decently.

None the less, given that Gilbert and Sullivan both came from a direction seeking to upgrade the quality - and morality - of musical entertainments, which were decidedly dodgy before German Reed and then D'Oyly Carte cleaned them up for "family suitability", the growing G&S cult was largely the preserve of the intelligentsia and middle class, with the working classes tending to gravitate to the new Music Halls.

By the end of the Edwardian era, the split was more marked. Although the amateur societies (especially in the north of England and Scotland) were "upper lower class" and "lower middle class" in their appeal.

[Pulcinella]

That's been going for many years. York Opera (amateur company) perform G&S operas every so often. I was told by a member of the company that they do them to get bums on seats, so there is, presumably, still an appetite for it amongst the public, at least here in York. The York Opera productions are generally pretty good and they do insert topical references into the script.

I think a lot of amateur productions doggedly follow the old D'Oyly Carte stage directions and might perhaps benefit from trying a different approach

When did that constraint get dropped?

[MickyD]

When did that constraint get dropped?

Was it after Bridget D'Oyly Carte passed away? Before that the rules were very strict indeed. I remember seeing a very energetic performance of 'Pirates of Penzance' with Michael Praed (Robin of Sherwood) in the lead and it benefited greatly from the changes.

[hmvman]

When did that constraint get dropped?

I think it was 1960 when the copyright lapsed but I might be wrong. Certainly around that time.

[Master Jacques]

Was it after Bridget D'Oyly Carte passed away? Before that the rules were very strict indeed. I remember seeing a very energetic performance of 'Pirates of Penzance' with Michael Praed (Robin of Sherwood) in the lead and it benefited greatly from the changes.

Dame Bridget died (1985) after the original D'Oyly Carte Opera Company ceased to function (1982). During that "interim" period, before her legacy allowed the brief but strong flourishing emergence of the "New D'Oyly Carte", the hire part of the business continued to make money, from the company's London base.

The rules could only remain strict - and they were pretty much so, down to what props you had to use for which encore! - as long as Sullivan's music and Gilbert's words remained in copyright. After 1970, anyone could perform the music as they wished; after 1981 the same was true of the words - thus the "Papp Pirates" and other slack-jawed adaptations began to emerge.

So after 1981, although the hire department continued to hire out costumes, props, scores and libretti, its business gradually declined. It was a fascinating place to visit: while I was directing a production for the "new" company, in 1990, I went down there a couple of times, just to have a good browse round. Gilbert's presence was almost tangible.

I'm not sure whether it's still functioning: others will doubtless know the answer.

[MickyD]

Fascinating post, Master Jacques. Were you also involved in the productions at the Savoy Theatre in the late 80s? I saw a very good 'Mikado' there, fast moving, with quite a lot of business going on stage.

[Master Jacques]

Fascinating post, Master Jacques. Were you also involved in the productions at the Savoy Theatre in the late 80s? I saw a very good 'Mikado' there, fast moving, with quite a lot of business going on stage.

No, though I did see some of those shows. My involvement with the "new" company was brief (1990-91, in UK and the American season in LA) but intense!

[Ian Thumwood]

This is an interesting thread. As a child I used to be taken to Winchester Guidhall to see productions of G&S and in which a family friend had involvement. At the time, I always wished I could have gone to the football with my Dad instead but I found it amusing at the time as I was still in Junior School.

These days I think that G&S is pretty cringe-worthy. I appreciate that people like Howard Goodall have praised this music, especially for the craft with which the words matched the music and am also aware that Sullivan's music has it's adherents too. For me, I feel that G&S is very typical of that late Victorian era where people had more dispoable income and an increased degree of leisure time. The Penguin edition of Jerome K Jerome's "Three men in a boat" really explains this well and makes comparisons with things like the rise of association football , cricket and cycling. Whilst these kind of things would have appealed to the working class, G&W was very much the middle class alternative. You could consider it the equalent of things like Lloyd Webber today albeit I feel their satire was probably sharper. The problem is that it has aged so poorly that you can understand the diminishing appeal when we now have access to so much music which is very often far superior. I would suggest their worls are now of more interest to the social historian than music fans. Nowadays, G&S seem deeply embarrassing although I did laugh a long time ago when a French teacher used G&W as a put down to someone who had mooted than English art was superior to French!

[Master Jacques]

This is an interesting thread. As a child I used to be taken to Winchester Guidhall to see productions of G&S and in which a family friend had involvement. At the time, I always wished I could have gone to the football with my Dad instead but I found it amusing at the time as I was still in Junior School [snip] These days I think that G&S is pretty cringe-worthy.

Don't sit on the fence!

The artistic, literary and socio-political interest in the 13 surviving G&S operas is massive. Before calling G&S "deeply embarrassing" it might be a good idea to make some effort to understand why so many people (like me) still find it good art, good theatre and good music.

Positive suggestion: listen closely to one tiny number: "So please you sir, we much regret..." from The Mikado, and admire Gilbert's text, as a pompous old buffer has rings run around him by three pert schoolgirls. Then enjoy Sullivan's whirling dance, his sprung rhythm, his deft counterpoint, and a fizzing orchestration which never obscures the voices. It's a fantastic concoction of dance, song and wit which lasts less than two minutes, and has as much "content" as an hour's worth of your average Meyerbeer opera.

This is great music theatre. That's why it's lasted nearly 150 years and shows no sign of leaving the stage any time soon.

[MickyD]

Perfectly put, Master Jacques.

[hmvman]

Perfectly put, Master Jacques.

Agreed!

[ChandlersFord]

Colin Welland’s excellent 1973 Play For Today, Jack Point, was a funny (and sad) exploration of a ‘typical’ G&S Society in the early 1970s and all the amdram politicking associated with a mooted new production of The Yeomen Of The Guard. It’s on youtube currently, and contributors to this thread might care to seek it out.