Gilbert & Sullivan: Exclusively For ‘The Elderly’?

[ChandlersFord]

Advance apologies if the thread title offends - but, as I’m 56 this year myself, I’m probably part of my own target.

I can remember a time when practically every town in britain seemed to have a G&S Society, and G&S enthusiasts were of all ages and classes.

This doesn’t seem to be the case today, and one can understand why.

Sullivan’s music, though I don’t particularly like it, is unfailingly tuneful and (it’s fair to say) uplifting in its breezy way. But Gilbert’s libretti are wordy and complex and extremely (afraid there’s no other word) ‘Victorian’; the vocabulary employed may have most people who were educated under the national curriculum scratching their heads in puzzlement. And, in the hard-faced age we live in, it probably all seems a little bit whimsical and, dare one say it, twee?

Yeomen Of The Guard apart, I’m not much of a fan, but I know plenty of people who are: the thing is, all those people are getting on a bit and I don’t see much sign of any new blood to replace them.

Is this something I’m alone in noticing, or is it a ‘general thing’?

[french frank]

Is this something I’m alone in noticing, or is it a ‘general thing’?

Probably all true. I was recently given some LPs of a lot of the operettas but generously passed them on to Amnesty (though I am included among 'the elderly'). Gilbert is certainly, inescapably Victorian though I wouldn't personally hold that against him and greatly admire (and appreciate) his wordsmithery. Princess Ida was my favourite - a clever take-off of Tennyson's The Princess. However, I doubt many would know or want to know what 'pops of Sillery' (used as 'light artillery') were - and still are, I suppose.

[ChandlersFord]

The Lord Chancellor’s Nightmare Song (Iolanthe) is exactly the kind of thing I can imagine a Millennial saying ‘meh’ to.

Really - they ought to play G&S at all-night McDonalds outlets to deter the ‘cool roughs’ from hanging out there.

[Master Jacques]

Probably all true. I was recently given some LPs of a lot of the operettas but generously passed them on to Amnesty (though I am included among 'the elderly'). Gilbert is certainly, inescapably Victorian though I wouldn't personally hold that against him and greatly admire (and appreciate) his wordsmithery. Princess Ida was my favourite - a clever take-off of Tennyson's The Princess. However, I doubt many would know or want to know what 'pops of Sillery' (used as 'light artillery') were - and still are, I suppose.

As someone who first sang G&S on stage aged 9 and 10 - as Dick Deadeye and Robin Oakapple in complete primary school stagings of Pinafore and Ruddigore respectively - these 13 surviving operas (plus Cox and Box, by Sullivan and Burnand) were the start of my journey in art, and still form an ineradicable part of my being.

Sullivan's success would be impossible without Gilbert, whose influence still holds strong in the USA, more than here. Yet nothing lasts for ever, and it's inevitably the case that with each passing year, there will be fewer and fewer productions, especially as the local operatic societies have almost all disappeared. The annual Buxton jamboree - attended by amateur and professional companies from all over the world - is now a focus for G&S, but in time that too will die. Eventually we'll be left with occasional (and unsuitable) "major house" productions of The Mikado, the pinnacle of G&S, and a masterwork on the level of the greatest comedic dramas in English, but little else.

Nothing lasts for ever, and these superb operas have had a good run - getting on for 150 years (for Trial by Jury) and counting. As Tippett once said, what price (even) Beethoven, in the Age of Aquarius?

[Master Jacques]

However, I doubt many would know or want to know what 'pops of Sillery' (used as 'light artillery') were - and still are, I suppose.

Indeed so! Mind you, on a similar topic ... when I organised a little early evening celebration on the stage of the Savoy Theatre, to celebrate the 100th birthday there of The Grand Duke on March 7th 1996, I was able to obtain the appropriate 'bumpers' to match these lines in the Baroness's song:

Come, bumpers – aye, ever so many –
And then, if you will, many more!
This wine doesn’t cost us a penny,
Tho’ it’s Pomméry seventy-four!

Well I didn't manage vintage Pomméry '74, but it was at least Pomméry; and though it cost me a pretty penny, it cost my guests nothing at all!

[french frank]

Well I didn't manage vintage Pomméry

How about a vintage Simmery (Axe)?

[Master Jacques]

How about a vintage Simmery (Axe)?

I have it already in stacks!

[french frank]

I have it already in stacks!

[smittims]

As a child of a G&S-loving father, I was taken around to see stagings of most of the popular operas (including a rather good 'Princess Ida', not often done by amateur societies) and they formed my first experience of hearing a live orchestra, before I moved on to discover Elgar, VW, etc.

I think that if G&S is to survive it will be by a sort of 'HIPP' or Werktreue approach, showing that they aren't obsolete but products of a different age which , like many others, have something of their own to show us. It's difficult to describe this precisely but perhaps an analogy might help. he famous film 'The Blue Lamp' was conceived as a tribute to The London Bobby, the modest, hard-working individual who was (at least seen as) a pillar of society; and it was hugely popular and praised for its value and relevance. Over the years of course it became out-of -date for that purpose ; but now so much time has passed that it canbe seen as a carefully-conceived picture of a vanished era, not , perhaps, so much as an accuarte documentary as a revelation of how the British wanted their police to be seen then (in contrast to the complex view of them today).

One thing I don't want to see is the sort of 'updated' G&S shown in the ENO 'Pinafore' shown on SkyArts recently. I was appalled to find that Gilbert's subtle and witty spoken dialogue was replaced by 20th-century pantomime smut. I'm sure this is not the way forward.

[JasonPalmer]

Enjoyed a production of rudigor at hever castle and the mikado by amateurs locally. In the past have seen pirates of Penzance. Fun entertainment.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Actually, some of Gilbert’s references to the antics of politicians are bang up to date.

[MickyD]

I've got a bit of a love-hate relationship with G&S. The operettas are in my blood as my father played them constantly whilst I was growing up, and then I took part myself in a school production of The Mikado. Years later out of affection, I used to accompany a G&S loving aunt each year to Sadler's Wells for their productions - it was during the golden era of the likes of John Reed and Kenneth Sandford and there is no doubt they were very slick performances.

It always amazes me that amateur groups attempt them, as they are deceptively difficult to bring off and when performed at a lacklustre pace, they fall flat on their face.

I would agree that they fall under the label of whimsy. My sister is part of an amateur G&S group in Kent - everyone puts in an effort and has a great time - probably more than the audience! I see no harm in any of it, though it is true to say that the cast is of a certain age and I cannot see the younger generation getting involved. But like that other strong British tradition of pantomime, the words can be updated to be more relevant. I wouldn't advise tinkering too much with everything, but given an inventive director, I'm sure there is still a place for them.

[kernelbogey]

I would agree that they fall under the label of whimsy.

And there's the very strange diction, quite unlike anything else, that is traditional.

[Barbirollians]

Probably all true. I was recently given some LPs of a lot of the operettas but generously passed them on to Amnesty (though I am included among 'the elderly'). Gilbert is certainly, inescapably Victorian though I wouldn't personally hold that against him and greatly admire (and appreciate) his wordsmithery. Princess Ida was my favourite - a clever take-off of Tennyson's The Princess. However, I doubt many would know or want to know what 'pops of Sillery' (used as 'light artillery') were - and still are, I suppose.

Silvery is a still wine from the Champagne area - well it was not sure if much made nowadays under the AC label Coteaux Champenois . If it pops - sounds like secondary fermentation and it is turning into champagne. It is also a village in the area.

[Pulcinella]

I've got a bit of a love-hate relationship with G&S. The operettas are in my blood as my father played them constantly whilst I was growing up, and then I took part myself in a school production of The Mikado. Years later out of affection, I used to accompany a G&S loving aunt each year to Sadler's Wells for their productions - it was during the golden era of the likes of John Reed and Kenneth Sandford and there is no doubt they were very slick performances.

It always amazes me that amateur groups attempt them, as they are deceptively difficult to bring off and when performed at a lacklustre pace, they fall flat on their face.

I would agree that they fall under the label of whimsy. My sister is part of an amateur G&S group in Kent - everyone puts in an effort and has a great time - probably more than the audience! I see no harm in any of it, though it is true to say that the cast is of a certain age and I cannot see the younger generation getting involved. But like that other strong British tradition of pantomime, the words can be updated to be more relevant. I wouldn't advise tinkering too much with everything, but given an inventive director, I'm sure there is still a place for them.

The University of York seems to have a very active G&S Society:

https://yusu.org/activities/view/gilbert-sullivan-society