Is it time to "cancel" Elgar ?

[Nick Armstrong]

I seem to hear the furious clattering of a troll at his keyboard deep in the wood thumwhere…

[Master Jacques]

I thought the "land without music" comment had stemmed from an earlier period around the time of Beethoven. Happy to be corrected regarding performances / recordings of British works outside US/UK. Wasn't the whole point of Mendelssohn being invited to Britain being necessary due to the paucity of our own composers

There is some debate as to when the comment 'das Land ohne Musik' actually originated, but it was no earlier than the 1890s, and was certainly popularised and propagandised in the run up to World War 1.

Mendelssohn wasn't exactly "invited", though he was welcomed: he came to London of his own accord, like all the other leading German composers of his time (except Wagner, though in his case it wasn't for want of trying and considered himself unlucky). Felix's popularity with the Royal Family turned him into an English institution (don't forget that his magnum opus Elijah is an English oratorio, written for Birmingham).

The fact is, that London (from the age of Haydn and even earlier) was the great honey pot for world music. It had the best players, the best singers, and hired the best composing talent. The dearth of English composers in the period after Handel is only true for orchestral and instrumental music: it came about because we didn't start training concert and opera composers up, until the foundation of the great Royal Colleges later in the 19th century. Sullivan, for example, had to be sent to study in Leipzig, on a crown grant.

But English sacred choral music of the late 18th-early 19th century was heavily institutionalised, and it can be superlative. We must not forget that sacred music was considered fully as important as secular music, if not more so. That is how many English musicians made their living.

[Quarky]

s. Oddily enough, the only time I have heard an English composer's music played in France was actually a performance ofa chamber peace by Britten in Aix-en-Provence. I am even more disinclined towards his music than Elgar's! Is there anything more wretched than the Britten folk song settings so wonderfully satirised by Dudley Moore ?

Just on a point of information, there is a great deal of English music played on French radio, including Elgar. A search through the French Radio Website for "Elgar" reveals 102 hits, including very recent performances in January and December, for example of his first Symphony::
https://www.radiofrance.fr/recherche...ar&p=&entities[]=ALL&date=all&duration=all

Just wondering whether French Radio may be a better source on information on English Music than equivalent UK sources! For example did you know::In 1999, his portrait appeared on the new £20 banknote, printed in 125 million copies. But when the note was replaced in 2010, the millions of notes were shredded into small pieces and used to make fertilizer. From composition to compost, there is only one step!

[Serial_Apologist]

Well! This Forum never ceases to surprise me. I thought I was telescoping a couple of pretty uncontroversial points here:

(1) that the Pomp and Circumstance marches would not have become the focus of so much opprobrium, if they hadn't been so exciting, to so many of our fellow citizens. If they'd been at the lower voltage of (say) Bax's Coronation March of 1953, I don't suppose a single hackle would be raised.

(2) that this excitement is largely generated by what they evoke in people's minds: military pageantry, soldiers in brightly colourful uniforms, horses and jingling spurs, marching smartly through London on a bright morning, in times long past.

(3) this in turn creates for many other people other images, of the oppressions of Empire, which form an ironic counterpoint to the music.

Elgar, don't you agree?, is not responsible for (3).

Well then, I take back my earlier remark with apologies to yourself.

[RichardB]

Ian - is this a wind up ?

I think it's been shown that Ian is not posting from a position of any knowledge on this particular subject, nor seemingly feeling any need to expand his knowledge beyond a couple of anecdotes and prejudices. I don't think he'd much appreciate people sounding off about jazz in a comparable way.

Elgar and jingoism: well, he did write those marches and he did give them the title that they have, and obviously, whatever his own convictions or lack thereof, they work very well both at being exciting for those who find such things exciting, and at being highly suspicious for those who don't.

British music of the 20th century: there is clearly a difference in what I was calling "insularity" between the generations of Elgar, Delius, Britten, Bax, Vaughan Williams etc. on the one hand, and those of Cardew, Maxwell Davies, Birtwistle and Ferneyhough on the other, even if there are still plenty of throwbacks to the previous generations.

Also, the word "English" is being used a bit too often on this thread when what is meant is "British"!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think it's been shown that Ian is not posting from a position of any knowledge on this particular subject, nor seemingly feeling any need to expand his knowledge beyond a couple of anecdotes and prejudices. I don't think he'd much appreciate people sounding off about jazz in a comparable way.

Elgar and jingoism: well, he did write those marches and he did give them the title that they have, and obviously, whatever his own convictions or lack thereof, they work very well both at being exciting for those who find such things exciting, and at being highly suspicious for those who don't.

British music of the 20th century: there is clearly a difference in what I was calling "insularity" between the generations of Elgar, Delius, Britten, Bax, Vaughan Williams etc. on the one hand, and those of Cardew, Maxwell Davies, Birtwistle and Ferneyhough on the other, even if there are still plenty of throwbacks to the previous generations.

Also, the word "English" is being used a bit too often on this thread when what is meant is "British"!

Didn’t Adorno hate Jazz? As for your list I don’t think Elgar etc were insular except in so far as they lived on an island . I would put them squarely in the European symphonic tradition (except for Britten where his musical antecedents are operatic Verdi , Puccini, Strauss , Purcell ) . Didn’t RVW study abroad in a conscious attempt to be “more “ than an English composer ? Delius largely and composed lived abroad . Trouble is when you write about cuckoos everyone thinks you’re English - even though there are far more cuckoos abroad. They are heading to extinction here.
You’re right British and English are not interchangeable.

[Master Jacques]

Well then, I take back my earlier remark with apologies to yourself.

No need for apologies, serial or otherwise! I was surprised (and interested) by your responses. Having been accused earlier in the week - not on this Forum, I hasten to add - of being a cheerleader for Cancel Culture, I was amused to find myself taken for Colonel Blimp!!

By curious happenstance, I chose a Chesky CD of Boult called 'Concert Favourites' to play late last night, without having noticed how it opened:

https://amazon.co.uk/Sir-Adrian-Boult-Concert-Favourites/dp/B000003GDB

After collapsing in giggles when track 1 started up, I experienced my (1), (2) and (3) in quick succession.
(This old Chesky disc is a heart-warming collection, by the way, with an outstanding and uncut Overture di Ballo as the highlight. That was the reason I bought the disc in the first place.)

[Ein Heldenleben]

One could write an essay on that quotation as many people have done, more knowledgeably than I could. 'Not everyone passively accepts, upholds or reflects the norms of the age': but most people do. Isn't that what makes them the 'norms'? My point was about condemning the traditions of those dead generations from the perspective of the present. I suppose some people will do that, others, the ones who don't 'passively accept, uphold or reflect the norms of the age', will reflect (more usefully) on the imperfections of the present. One needs to be able to empathise with the dead generations before passing moral judgments on other human beings. Though as John Major said, "Society needs to condemn a little more and understand a little less". Not a political view I agree with.

Aren’t historians always passing moral judgments on the past even the relatively recent past ? Aren’t there a set of commonly held views about what is right and wrong more largely based around the (non religious parts ) of the Ten Commandments? I’ve read historical debates about amongst other things the area bombing policy of the Allies in WW2 , the bombing of Hiroshima. There’s even been a debate the legitimacy of some of the charges at the Nuremberg war crimes trials. All those debates (if they took place much at all ) looked very different at the exact time they were happening. I see Nigel Biggar has written something of an apologia for the Empire with more than flavour of “what did the Romans ever do for us.” Yet most contemporary historians would not attempt any defence of the idea on one country invading / annexing / mounting an economic then political takeover of another country no matter what the benefit to the latter in terms of railways , civil service , rule of law and Lutyens buildings.
Even today we have the Trevelyan family offering £100,000 as part reparation for the millions they made from slavery but nothing curiously for their ancestors’ (in)actions in the Irish famine. I can’t make up my mind whether it’s all just trendy gesture or something more, They have made a moral judgment about their ancestors ‘ past and looking at their ancestors ‘ actions in the light pf Ten Commandments it could be argued they have done the right thing.

[Master Jacques]

Even today we have the Trevelyan family offering £100,000 as part reparation for the millions they made from slavery but nothing curiously for their ancestors’ (in)actions in the Irish famine. I can’t make up my mind whether it’s all just trendy gesture or something more, They have made a moral judgment about their ancestors ‘ past and looking at their ancestors ‘ actions in the light of Ten Commandments it could be argued they have done the right thing.

A case, I suppose, of another biblical - and classical - parable, that the sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the children.

A curious aspect of today's special brand of Presentism, is the degree to which works of art are being subjected to the same moral scrutiny, and their authors "blamed" for the "crimes" of their fictional children. Only this morning, a guest on Woman's Hour has been laying into Shakespeare, for more or less excluding Lady Macbeth from the second half of his play, an omission which apparently "reduced the play's value".

In the case of Elgar, the brou-ha-ha seems to reduce him to Pomp and Circumstance No.1 and his etching on the old £20 note. Plus possibly Nimrod. And he was a hunter, so duck as the animal rights activists zoom in, like so many hungry vultures.

[ahinton]

Were Elgar actually to be "cancelled", I wonder how long it might be for the cancelling of Elgar to be "cancelled"?...

Does the OP think that Anthony Payne should also be "cancelled"?...

[Serial_Apologist]

Were Elgar actually to be "cancelled", I wonder how long it might be for the cancelling of Elgar to be "cancelled"?...

Does the OP think that Anthony Payne should also be "cancelled"?...

A better target than either would probably be Parry, whose Blest Pair of Sirens of 1887 virtually provided future British composers with a model for patriotic ceremonial music - including himself with Jerusalem, which could, arguably, with Elgar's arrangement coupled to a few suitable word changes, provide an alternative to our national anthem for a future devolved or independent England!

[Bryn]

Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum.

[ahinton]

A better target than either would probably be Parry, whose Blest Pair of Sirens of 1887 virtually provided future British composers with a model for patriotic ceremonial music - including himself with Jerusalem, which could, arguably, with Elgar's arrangement coupled to a few suitable word changes, provide an alternative to our national anthem for a future devolved or independent England!

Interesting thoughts!

As to Blest Pair of Sirens, my first reaction would be to argue that it illustrates Parry's greed given that, in the far finer piece Amériques, Varèse was content with just the one.

As to a new UK national anthem (I nearly typed "anathema" but managed to stop myself), I've long since thought that, if one really has to have such a thing in the first place, then Purcell's Fairest Isle, to Dryden's words (or at least a part of it as is usually the case with UK's current national anthem), would seem far more appropriate, given its effective non-imperialist, non-monarchist, apolitical nature.

[Serial_Apologist]

Interesting thoughts!

As to Blest Pair of Sirens, my first reaction would be to argue that it illustrates Parry's greed given that, in the far finer piece Amériques, Varèse was content with just the one.

As to a new UK national anthem (I nearly typed "anathema" but managed to stop myself), I've long since thought that, if one really has to have such a thing in the first place, then Purcell's Fairest Isle, to Dryden's words (or at least a part of it as is usually the case with UK's current national anthem), would seem far more appropriate, given its effective non-imperialist, non-monarchist, apolitical nature.

Not a bad idea!

Good to see we're still here, btw.

[gradus]

A case, I suppose, of another biblical - and classical - parable, that the sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the children.

A curious aspect of today's special brand of Presentism, is the degree to which works of art are being subjected to the same moral scrutiny, and their authors "blamed" for the "crimes" of their fictional children. Only this morning, a guest on Woman's Hour has been laying into Shakespeare, for more or less excluding Lady Macbeth from the second half of his play, an omission which apparently "reduced the play's value".

In the case of Elgar, the brou-ha-ha seems to reduce him to Pomp and Circumstance No.1 and his etching on the old £20 note. Plus possibly Nimrod. And he was a hunter, so duck as the animal rights activists zoom in, like so many hungry vultures.

According to the Daily Telegraph, the Church of England has decided to make £100m worth of reparations for the wealth it accumulated through slavery.