Is it time to "cancel" Elgar ?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Going off topic a little, but it's arguable that the strict post-war German and Austrian bans on the Horst-Wessel-Lied have only served to fuel the ugly resurrection of neo-fascism. Laughing at the thing would have done more good.

With Elgar, just think how hugely popular the Pomp and Circumstance marches would become, in rather shady corners of UK Society, if they were to be "cancelled". [Shiver]

Just don’t think it would ever have been a laughing matter in Germany. The Quote from Othello borrowed by Elgar “Pride , Pomp and Circumstance of Glorious war “ rings very hollow in the dramatic context of the play . But not as hollow as the rather poor poem Elgar apparently put as an epigraph to the 1st P & C March

“ Like a proud music that draws men on to die
Madly upon the spears in martial ecstasy,
A measure that sets heaven in all their veins
And iron in their hands.
I hear the Nation march
Beneath her ensign as an eagle's wing;
O'er shield and sheeted targe
The banners of my faith most gaily swing;
Moving to victory with solemn noise,
With worship and with conquest, and the voice of myriads.”

I wonder whether he really meant it? It’s certainly a lot more bellicose than the words of Land Of Hope and Glory that he reputedly didn’t like much. His one comment I can remember about the First World War where he makes clear that he was more worried about the horses’ suffering than human has always struck me as both very British and rather callous. Human beings are complex creatures aren’t they?

[Master Jacques]

I wonder whether he really meant it? It’s certainly a lot more bellicose than the words of Land Of Hope and Glory that he reputedly didn’t like much. His one comment I can remember about the First World War where he makes clear that he was more worried about the horses’ suffering than human has always struck me as both very British and rather callous. Human beings are complex creatures aren’t they?

Thank you for drawing this extraordinary effusion to our attention. I for one have not come across it before, and hope never to hear it again!

Of course, the idea that we have to "like" or "approve" a composer's private life and thoughts, in order to justify listening to his music, has been exposed as nonsense, earlier in this thread. Human beings are indeed complex: and those who "achieve" most, be it in the arts, sciences or any other branch of human endeavour, need a streak of indifference - even ruthlessness - towards ordinary existence which does not usually make them either "nice" or "good".

[JasonPalmer]

The art can be appreciated without liking the artist, a lot of it depends on fashion, things come and go in popularity over the years.

[ahinton]

Just don’t think it would ever have been a laughing matter in Germany. The Quote from Othello borrowed by Elgar “Pride , Pomp and Circumstance of Glorious war “ rings very hollow in the dramatic context of the play . But not as hollow as the rather poor poem Elgar apparently put as an epigraph to the 1st P & C March

“ Like a proud music that draws men on to die
Madly upon the spears in martial ecstasy,
A measure that sets heaven in all their veins
And iron in their hands.
I hear the Nation march
Beneath her ensign as an eagle's wing;
O'er shield and sheeted targe
The banners of my faith most gaily swing;
Moving to victory with solemn noise,
With worship and with conquest, and the voice of myriads.”

I wonder whether he really meant it? It’s certainly a lot more bellicose than the words of Land Of Hope and Glory that he reputedly didn’t like much. His one comment I can remember about the First World War where he makes clear that he was more worried about the horses’ suffering than human has always struck me as both very British and rather callous. Human beings are complex creatures aren’t they?

Yes, I've wondered that, too. Maybe he thought that if Arthur wotsisname could write such a dire piece of doggerel as LoHaG he could do it as well himself.

To something of a skit on P&C1 (or rather on the ways in which it's viewed by some) scored for piano trio I appended an even worse verse that runs

"No land, nor hope, nor glory's to be won;
For our march is not a military one.
No! no bombs nor muskets – we disapprove of these;
No more army, no more air force – a plague on IEDs
Forever. And my sword shall sleep in someone else’s hand.
No Empire; the map’s not coloured pink!
Bring me my pen and ink."

with the adde observation that "the composer understandably hopes that these words “never never shall be” sung to his tune [that of the trio section of his march] and in that he is reasonably confident..."

(More than) enough!...

[JasonPalmer]

That verse made me think of a documentary I once watched about the British empire transforming rather than collapsing.

Conspiracy or truth ? Probably a bit of both eh.....land of hope,glory,hedge funds,offshore tax shelters....rule bankers Britannia......

[Serial_Apologist]

An excellent point surely Wagner a much better candidate for cancellation ?

The difficulty - not that I think there is one - is that in the fields of innovation and idiomatic expansion, Wagner was a visionary, and one whose musical ideas went on to influence composers, including Jewish ones such as Mahler and Schoenberg, but also (even, one might say) Debussy, who wrote agonisingly on the difficulties of extrapolating his own evolving musical personality from Wagner, and that whole school of French composers (Chausson, D'indy, Dukas & co) who came about in the 1890s. One cannot really say the same about Elgar's influence, which was most obviously manifest in parts of Bliss's music (alongside several other influences) and of Bax, and Walton's two coronation marches, not forgetting the über-Elgaran God of Gold episode in Belshazzar's Feast. Here, and in Ireland's These Things Shall Be of 1937, one found the idiomatic blueprint (pun not intended) for a certain kind of British ceremonial music that did not exist elsewhere (unless one includes Copland's setting of the Gettysburg Address). Softened versions of this modelled music for formal public occasions can then be found in Ireland's London Overture and similar such works by Coates. After the sixties the idiom was used, often to satirical ends, in numerous popular British films in the 1960s, starting (?) with The Dam Busters. By which stage the idiom had been appropriated to entirely different ends from Wagner's direct, overt influence, which after Strauss's Metamorphosen was pretty much out of the picture for new compositions.

Was it not VW who was outraged by the "cancellation " of Alan Bush for Communism ?

My suspicion is that Vaughan Williams privately held some sympathy for Bush, and that idealism, however wrong the means whereby it was being practised beyond the Iron Curtain, should win the day over BBC siding with the establishment. I wonder what others feel about this.

[RichardB]

Yes the whole concept of ‘I don’t like it so no-one has the right to experience it’ is one of the madder aspects of modern life (echoing the most sinister passages of human history). Absolute nonsense.

The thing is that (like "political correctness" before it), "cancel culture" is primarily an attempt by rightwing media to make out that genuine concerns about racism, sexism, jingoism and so forth are ridiculous "extremist" ideas. Most of the accusations of some person or thing being "cancelled" are wild exaggerations. In other words, "culture wars" (largely a phenomenon in US academia rather than being more widespread) are largely the doing of people who don't care about culture except to denigrate those who do care about it.

[Hitch]

Not yet having warmed to his second symphony, I would rather not do without Elgar's first nor his Cello Concerto and Enigma Variations. Look past those of his works with jingoistic reputations (justified or not) and there are treasures to be found:

Salut d'Amour, Op.12
Serenade for Strings, Op.20
Lux Christi, Op.29
Sea Pictures, Op.37
Introduction and Allegro, Op.47
In the South (Alassio), Op.50
Elegy, Op.58
Sospiri, Op. 70
Polonia, Op. 76
Violin Sonata, Op.82

These compositions represent a fine body of work, and I hope to find a few more gems in Elgar's oeuvre.

[ahinton]

My suspicion is that Vaughan Williams privately held some sympathy for Bush, and that idealism, however wrong the means whereby it was being practised beyond the Iron Curtain, should win the day over BBC siding with the establishment. I wonder what others feel about this.

The letter that RVW wrote to BBC about this clarifies that he had no sympthy for Bush's political views but even less for BBC's decision to ban his music from broadcast; he'd just been paid for a BBC commission and went on to state that he would return the cheque and request the return of all the material at his own expense. Apparently, Winston Churchill (who pretty obviously did not share Bush's viws!) sided with RVW on this.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The thing is that (like "political correctness" before it), "cancel culture" is primarily an attempt by rightwing media to make out that genuine concerns about racism, sexism, jingoism and so forth are ridiculous "extremist" ideas. Most of the accusations of some person or thing being "cancelled" are wild exaggerations. In other words, "culture wars" (largely a phenomenon in US academia rather than being more widespread) are largely the doing of people who don't care about culture except to denigrate those who do care about it.

It’s interesting that when the Times did a massive FOI survey on Universities “cancelling” books or issuing trigger warnings they could only find a few not very significant examples . I suspect that many trigger warnings are really about trying to avoid legal action from “triggered” students . It’s also interesting that when they do run these stories they get thousands of comments. I often think that’s the prime motivation. The major exception is the trans “debate “ but I’m not getting into that.

[Dave2002]

Ian Thumbwood - try listening to the symphonies again a few times, and you might change your opinion. Of course you are entitled not to, and there are quite a few pieces by Elgar which I'd be happy not to hear again - but the same can be said of music by many other composers. Some of his works are very good - and very much worth more than one hearing.

[JasonPalmer]

Of course Wagner wrote those essays on the Jews which hitler said were the basis of the nazi party views.

[RichardB]

Of course Wagner wrote those essays on the Jews which hitler said were the basis of the nazi party views.

Wagner wrote one essay entitled "Das Judenthum in der Musik" ("Jewishness in Music") originally published in 1850 and reprinted in 1869. Between then and the Nazi period it was reprinted only once, in 1914, so it's very unlikely that it was read by Adolf Hitler or any of the Nazi hierarchy and there is no evidence that it was, unless you have access to documents that other historians don't.

[Master Jacques]

My suspicion is that Vaughan Williams privately held some sympathy for Bush, and that idealism, however wrong the means whereby it was being practised beyond the Iron Curtain, should win the day over BBC siding with the establishment. I wonder what others feel about this.

I've never seen any evidence to suggest that RVW had any sympathy for communism. Some talk about his socialist tendencies, but in essence he remained a good, old-fashioned liberal throughout his life. He did, as a result, have sympathy for Bush's right to have his music heard, and did something to make sure it was.

It's our loss that Bush's operas were only commissioned and performed in East Germany, on the orders of his old friend Ernst Hermann Meyer, who he'd helped in London exile, and who helped him in return once he went back to East Berlin.

[visualnickmos]

Hmmmmm..... an interesting thread, but one that has been 'done' many times, over the life of this forum, using one composer or another as a catalyst, and not actually addressing anything new. It often seems to come down to one thing - the choice of any individual as to whether they 'cancel' or not. Apart from that, I don't think there is anything to be gained, save perhaps the curiosity value of reading others comments. The circle continues!