Is it time to "cancel" Elgar ?

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  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4179

    Is it time to "cancel" Elgar ?

    Last night I went to a concert at the Anvil in Basingstoke which had an opening set of Debussy's "Prelude a l'apres-mid d'un faune" and Bartok's 2nd piano concerto. Both of these compositions are exceptional and exactly the kind of music that makes me passionate about Classical music although my main interest is jazz. That said, the second half featured the 2nd Symphony by Edward Elgar, a composer I have very rarely listened to other than the Cello Concerto and the Enigma Variations. Neither of these two works are of particular interest and I have to admit that I find the P & C marches more than a bit ridiculous. I listened to the 2nd Symphony with open ears yet I have to admit that I felt it was an over-long, monotonous piece of claptrap. It is staggering to think that this symphony was composed in 1911 when the world was Classical composition was open to so many possibilities yet the "English" love of nostalgia ensure that not only could Elgar's music still be accommodated at that time but some felt him worthy enough to be elevated to the position of our nation's greatest composer.

    Part of the problem with the music is that it is so wrapped up in our Imperial past that it probably carries more political baggage than many other composer's whose music has nationalistic overtones. Indeed, where this is the case, it is often seen through a lens of looking for independence whereas Elgar's music reflects the time when half of the map of the world was coloured red. Elgar is the ultimate "White man's music." This makes listening to Elgar's music in 2023 extremely problematic. The problem is also compounded by the fact that Elgar's music does not really deserve the reputation it deserves and should have been put out of it's misery after his passing in the 1930s. It is not good enough to have lasted 90 years after he died. His popularity merely reflects the way the English perceive themselves within the world and it has nothing to do with the highly average quality of his music. Having listened to some Amy Beach's music last week, I certainly do not feel she was inferior to Elgar yet she is a contemporary whose reputation is far more niche.

    As a jazz fan, I do find it difficult to understand why some classical composers are reverred whereas there are many others who have been unjustly neglected. The early 20th century was the most exciting period in Classical music to my ears, even though I am not a fan of all of it including 2nd Vienese school. However, the likes of Debussy, Bartok, Janacek, Ravel, Scriabin and Enescu present for me the apogee of the Classical ouevre. I therefore find it bizarre to consider that Elgar was a contemporary of many of the above.

    I am going to be mischievous and argue that by dint of his Imperials associations alone, it is high time that Elgar's music was "cancelled." Given that Elgar's music was never at the forefront of Classical music and, in my opinion, vastly overrated, I would like to suggest that the time for his music to be "cancelled" is well overdue and it's absence from the Classical canon will be of little consequence.
  • french frank
    Administrator/Moderator
    • Feb 2007
    • 30283

    #2
    Naughty! I think history should be "cancelled" too . That said, Elgar has never enthralled me, but that's a statement about me not Elgar or his music.
    It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

    Comment

    • Ein Heldenleben
      Full Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 6779

      #3
      I went to the same programme the following night and came away convinced that the work is one the greatest symphonies of the 20th century. I try not to get involved in culture war discussions but the Guardian appears to agree with me


      Dismiss Elgar as a purveyor of fusty romanticism at your peril. This symphony glows with a strange, veiled radiance and reveals his true colouristic genius, writes Tom Service



      Elgar came from a very humble background, was largely self taught ,and felt himself very much an outsider. He was also a Catholic - he was no British establishment toady . He also had a very complex attitude to Britain’s Imperial glories and to some extent wrote music which foreshadows its inevitable decline . The second symphony in fact is an intensely personal exploration of his own emotional landscape - in particular the death of a close friend who was the original focus of the funereal slow movement. In its endless melodic and harmonic inventiveness, subtle building of climax , magnificent orchestration it has some claim to be the greatest musical work written by an Englishman or woman and it will be performed long after this discussion is forgotten. Mind you the first audience didn’t like it .
      “What’s the matter with them Billy ? “ said the composer to a musician friend “they’re sitting there like a lot of stuffed pigs.”

      Comment

      • RichardB
        Banned
        • Nov 2021
        • 2170

        #4
        Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
        Elgar's music does not really deserve the reputation it deserves

        Comment

        • richardfinegold
          Full Member
          • Sep 2012
          • 7666

          #5
          I’m in sympathy with a lot of what the OP says regarding the quality of Elgar’s music, and in particular with his take on Symphony #2. However EE did write a couple of truly great works, namely the Concertos and the Enigma Vaiations. His reputation tends to be outsized in the U.K. Yes, his music is occasionally programmed and recorded elsewhere, but it barely has a toehold in the repertoire away from G.B., where in contrast he is performed with regularity. His more overtly jingoistic music hasn’t aged well and will probably die a natural death in concert halls with the help of political activists.
          However…Amy Beach is his equal? Really? And should any composer of the past or present be cancelled because they had political viewpoints that don’t comport with present reality? I was apoplectic when Tchaikovsky was being cancelled last year, as if he was supposed to have foreseen the political landscape 150 years after his demise

          Comment

          • Petrushka
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 12247

            #6
            I just don't see the point of negative threads like this. They don't rouse enthusiasm and I have less than zero interest that Ian Thumwood (or anyone else) dislikes Elgar (or any other composer).

            What I want to see is someone communicating their enthusiasm, whether for a given composer/work or recording, that makes you want to listen with fresh ears or make new discoveries. Negativity achieves nothing.
            "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

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            • JasonPalmer
              Full Member
              • Dec 2022
              • 826

              #7
              The public vote by deciding to buy concert tickets or not ?
              Annoyingly listening to and commenting on radio 3...

              Comment

              • Ein Heldenleben
                Full Member
                • Apr 2014
                • 6779

                #8
                Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
                I just don't see the point of negative threads like this. They don't rouse enthusiasm and I have less than zero interest that Ian Thumwood (or anyone else) dislikes Elgar (or any other composer).

                What I want to see is someone communicating their enthusiasm, whether for a given composer/work or recording, that makes you want to listen with fresh ears or make new discoveries. Negativity achieves nothing.
                I completely agree with you. I went to the same concert(the next night in Exeter ) and was very impressed with a magnificent performance of this masterpiece by Kiril Karabits and the indefatigable BSO . I would not want the musicians to go unthanked. There was also a staggering performance of Bartok’s 2nd piano concerto by Sun Wook Kim . I see that he is returning as a conductor with the BSO a in a couple of weeks. The BSO are also to be thanked for making the effort to get down to Exeter from Bournemouth so often - a long journey which makes for a very late return to base.

                Comment

                • ahinton
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 16122

                  #9
                  Ein Heldenleben raises important points about Elgar here, especially in illustrating that he was by no means a pillar of the Establishment. Also, to me, his music is not even especially "English", as his mentors seem to include Schumann, Brahms and Wagner rather than earlier English composers. One of the early performances of the Enigma Variations was given in Germany; it was conducted by Busoni, no less, who I suspect would have no truck with it had it not interested him and prompted him to introduce it to German audiences.

                  Ian Thumwood can cancel whomsoever he chooses - that is his prerogative, just as it is that of others to decline to do so.

                  Comment

                  • Ein Heldenleben
                    Full Member
                    • Apr 2014
                    • 6779

                    #10
                    Originally posted by ahinton View Post
                    Ein Heldenleben raises important points about Elgar here, especially in illustrating that he was by no means a pillar of the Establishment. Also, to me, his music is not even especially "English", as his mentors seem to include Schumann, Brahms and Wagner rather than earlier English composers. One of the early performances of the Enigma Variations was given in Germany; it was conducted by Busoni, no less, who I suspect would have no truck with it had it not interested him and prompted him to introduce it to German audiences.


                    Ian Thumwood can cancel whomsoever he chooses - that is his prerogative, just as it is that of others to decline to do so.

                    You’ve reminded me that the London premiere of the first symphony was conducted by its dedicatee the great German conductor Hans Richter and of his famous quote .
                    At the first rehearsal for the London concert, Richter addressed the orchestra, "Gentlemen, let us now rehearse the greatest symphony of modern times, written by the greatest modern composer – and not only in this country.”

                    It is safe to assume that Richter was no supporter of the British Empire. He saw Elgar as squarely in the great European musical tradition and who are we to disagree?
                    Last edited by Ein Heldenleben; 04-02-23, 11:53.

                    Comment

                    • MickyD
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 4756

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
                      I just don't see the point of negative threads like this. They don't rouse enthusiasm and I have less than zero interest that Ian Thumwood (or anyone else) dislikes Elgar (or any other composer).

                      What I want to see is someone communicating their enthusiasm, whether for a given composer/work or recording, that makes you want to listen with fresh ears or make new discoveries. Negativity achieves nothing.

                      Comment

                      • teamsaint
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 25209

                        #12
                        I went to the Anvil concert last night.
                        The Elgar was wonderful, everything one might hope for, given a great treatment by the BSO and Karabits.
                        Anybody in any doubt about the greatness of the two Elgar symphonies need only listen to Stephen Johnson on the subject, to understand their quality, even if they can’t be to everybody’s taste.




                        Stephen Johnson explores Elgar's Symphony No. 1, which was ten years in the making.
                        Last edited by teamsaint; 04-02-23, 12:26.
                        I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                        I am not a number, I am a free man.

                        Comment

                        • teamsaint
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 25209

                          #13
                          Originally posted by MickyD View Post
                          Also
                          I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                          I am not a number, I am a free man.

                          Comment

                          • teamsaint
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 25209

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
                            I completely agree with you. I went to the same concert(the next night in Exeter ) and was very impressed with a magnificent performance of this masterpiece by Kiril Karabits and the indefatigable BSO . I would not want the musicians to go unthanked. There was also a staggering performance of Bartok’s 2nd piano concerto by Sun Wook Kim . I see that he is returning as a conductor with the BSO a in a couple of weeks. The BSO are also to be thanked for making the effort to get down to Exeter from Bournemouth so often - a long journey which makes for a very late return to base.
                            The Bartok performance was indeed really staggering. And we were first row, almost under the piano. The orchestra never stood a chance

                            ( the Exeter was maybe Thursday EH , as Basingstoke was deffo last night !)
                            I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                            I am not a number, I am a free man.

                            Comment

                            • Ein Heldenleben
                              Full Member
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 6779

                              #15
                              Originally posted by teamsaint View Post
                              The Bartok performance was indeed really staggering. And we were first row, almost under the piano. The orchestra never stood a chance

                              ( the Exeter was maybe Thursday EH , as Basingstoke was deffo last night !)
                              You’re right . I just assumed with my Devonian chip on shoulder that we came second. I was similarly right under the keyboard. Sunwook’s hands were a blur at times . It was absolutely extraordinary. I don’t think he played a wrong note.

                              How did the Elgar come across? I was v impressed with Karabits’ control of things.

                              Comment

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