Opera in English

[Ein Heldenleben]

It does. Without ENO, the cause of opera in English - hard won over a hundred years by a host of great champions - is temporarily dead.

I agree with you . Britten was arguably the greatest opera composer of the 20th century . He did so much for opera in English . His legacy and that of Sadler’s Wells and Bayliss is being trashed.

[Mandryka]

Isn't opera rather a special case though? We can easily get lost in the plethora of genres by going down that road...

Nobody's addressed my point about coordinating surtitled translations with onstage action.

Well, what possible reason could there be for saying that English isn’t a good language for opera if it’s not basically the idea that English isn’t a good language to sing in?

I don’t have much experience of listening to opera in translation so I won’t comment.

[duncan]

On the whole I'd rather listen to opera in the language it was composed for. German and Czech operas don't sound too odd sung in English but Italian doesn't work for me at all. Puccini in English sounds like Andrew Lloyd Webber (not a compliment).

Despite Brexit, musicians are highly internationally mobile and a good young English-speaking singer will have far more opportunities to learn their craft in one of the provincial opera houses in central Europe than at the one in the UK that sings in English. The case for ENO singing in English to nurture local talent no longer applies.

(There is a good case for a smaller, second house in London to put on new or obscure pieces and more outré productions. Like the Komische in Berlin or the Sadler's Wells of the 40s-60s. It shouldn't be English language only, though there is nothing to stop it putting on Verdi's The Troubador if there is an audience for it.

[gurnemanz]

It’s a pretentious word for theatrical alienation introduced by Brecht. It means stepping outside the circle of pretence and drawing its theatricality explicitly to our attention - or when a character steps out of the play: as in Buttons asking “ Hello kids have a good Christmas did you ? “
Say V-effect and amaze your friends.

Brecht was inspired by Japanese Noh Theatre and also admired Shakespeare who makes frequent use of asides and soliloquies, which also break the strictly dramatic form. Brecht referred to "epic theatre". Richard III is in collusion with the audience, frequently looking us in the eye. Greek theatre used a chorus, as Shakespeare did, eg in Winter's Tale where Time, as a chorus, not a character in the play, comes on and chats to the audience at the beginning of Act IV. Romeo and Juliet begins with a prologue telling us what is going to happen: "A pair of star-cross’d lovers take their life;" - classic Epic Theatre. Brecht did this sort of thing with placards held up to the audience. Like Shakespeare, Brecht broke the dramatic flow with frequent use of songs. I would say he is borrowing these stage techniques from the past to react against the currently prevalent naturalistic theatre.

[cria]

... but Italian doesn't work for me at all. Puccini in English sounds like Andrew Lloyd Webber (not a compliment) ..

Scarpia's "Un tal baccano in chiesa!" does lose a bit when it becomes "What a bleedin' racket you're making ..."

[Ein Heldenleben]

Scarpia's "Un tal baccano in chiesa!" does lose a bit when it becomes "What a bleedin' racket you're making ..."

That “in Chiesa “ you just can’t get that mix of hideous fake pious hypocrisy and sinister threat in English.

[ChandlersFord]

Do you feel the same about songs? I mean, would you prefer it if Noel Coward songs were sung in German?

No: I specifically meant opera.

Songs are fine, but there is something about hearing the english language sung operatically that makes it sound even more pompous and plummy than it usually does.

Take Andrew Porter’s acclaimed (by many) version of the Ring, for instance: it sounds about thirty times as pompous and up itself as Wagner’s German libretto (and, yes, I know Germans or German-speakers have expressed a preference for Porter’s words over Wagner’s own stabreim doggerel, but the sound of the words in German is an important factor, for me at least).

As to getting laughs - I’ve never met anyone who goes to see/hear opera in search of broad comedy. Do such people actually exist?

[ChandlersFord]

Did I imagine it, or did Parsifal in ENO’s 1999 production render ‘Vergeh, unseliges Weib!’as ‘Clear off, you fucking bitch?’

[Master Jacques]

Did I imagine it, or did Parsifal in ENO’s 1999 production render ‘Vergeh, unseliges Weib!’as ‘Clear off, you fucking bitch?’

You must have imagined it, as that admirable English phrase sadly doesn't scan!

[Master Jacques]

On the whole I'd rather listen to opera in the language it was composed for. German and Czech operas don't sound too odd sung in English but Italian doesn't work for me at all. Puccini in English sounds like Andrew Lloyd Webber (not a compliment).

Indeed so. You'll be aware of the Puccini estate's dealings with AL-W after hearing Phantom? Enough said. Mind you, Sullivan in French sounds remarkably like Offenbach, and he never sued!

Despite Brexit, musicians are highly internationally mobile and a good young English-speaking singer will have far more opportunities to learn their craft in one of the provincial opera houses in central Europe than at the one in the UK that sings in English. The case for ENO singing in English to nurture local talent no longer applies.

That is unfortunately not the case. The Johnson government refused (for no good reason) to sign the offered agreement allowing free interchange for musicians, and English singers are in nearly all cases debarred from applying for contractual jobs in the German opera houses which were their training grounds. It is actually easier for American and Korean singers to do so, sad to say. That's why our own opera houses need to step up to the plate, to provide more employment for our singers, in principal roles.

(There is a good case for a smaller, second house in London to put on new or obscure pieces and more outré productions. Like the Komische in Berlin or the Sadler's Wells of the 40s-60s. It shouldn't be English language only, though there is nothing to stop it putting on Verdi's The Troubador if there is an audience for it.

I agree that the Coliseum had become part of the problem; but the bird has flown as far as finding a suitable home for ENO elsewhere in London. Sadler's Wells is quite happy as London's touring ballet theatre. But ENO must always be English-language only: that is its whole raison d'etre.

This fashion for opera in "original" languages which next to nobody on stage or off understands (in an education system which has almost completely dropped German, Italian and Spanish, with French on the skids also) is sure to pass, sooner one hopes rather than later. The death of studio recording, and the decline in available finance (sad to say), will help its demise.

Talking of Il trovatore (always given its Italian title in England, even when in English), I remember seeing it a couple of times in quick succession a few decades ago. The starry Covent Garden one had an Australian Leonora, an Italian Manrico, a Russian Luna and a German Azucena. It was a rickety old production and everyone was phoning it in. Terrible. A couple of weeks later I saw a standard in-house ENO job with singers of whom the snobs and prigs at the Royal Opera had probably never heard, led by Rita Hunter's stupendous Leonora. It was better produced, better played and infinitely better sung. And it was in English.

[Master Jacques]

That “in Chiesa “ you just can’t get that mix of hideous fake pious hypocrisy and sinister threat in English.

I respectfully disagree. With the right singer, and something like the words "Our church is not a bearpit!" you can certainly get both. And everyone can understand it, too, which helps. Just because we're familiar with Tito Gobbi blasting out the line in Italian doesn't mean it can't be translated. It's what you do with the words you're given which matters.

[Ein Heldenleben]

“Talking of Il trovatore (always given its Italian title in England, even when in English), I remember seeing it a couple of times in quick succession a few decades ago. The starry Covent Garden one had an Australian Leonora, an Italian Manrico, a Russian Luna and a German Azucena. It was a rickety old production and everyone was phoning it in. Terrible. A couple of weeks later I saw a standard in-house ENO job with singers of whom the snobs and prigs at the Royal Opera had probably never heard, led by Rita Hunter's stupendous Leonora. It was better produced, better played and infinitely better sung. And it was in English.”

One of ENO’s problems is that Covent Gardens artistic standards have been slowly on the rise since the 70’s particularly in the standard rep of Verdi and Puccini - a rise accelerated by Pappano’s arrival . I can remember a very pedestrian La Traviata in the 70’s . Twenty years later we had Solti/Georghiu . Trovatore remains a harder opera to cast but I saw a tremendous one at Covent Garden pre lockdown. I more or less stopped going to ENO for Verdi / Puccini though I do remember a good Otello with Stuart Skelton - the main reason was I wasn’t convinced they could get the singers - mind you neither could Covent Garden all the time. I get the impression from the reviews that the current ENO Boheme is in some respects better than Covent Garden’s .

[Master Jacques]

“Talking of Il trovatore (always given its Italian title in England, even when in English), I remember seeing it a couple of times in quick succession a few decades ago. The starry Covent Garden one had an Australian Leonora, an Italian Manrico, a Russian Luna and a German Azucena. It was a rickety old production and everyone was phoning it in. Terrible. A couple of weeks later I saw a standard in-house ENO job with singers of whom the snobs and prigs at the Royal Opera had probably never heard, led by Rita Hunter's stupendous Leonora. It was better produced, better played and infinitely better sung. And it was in English.”

One of ENO’s problems is that Covent Gardens artistic standards have been slowly on the rise since the 70’s particularly in the standard rep of Verdi and Puccini - a rise accelerated by Pappano’s arrival . I can remember a very pedestrian La Traviata in the 70’s . Twenty years later we had Solti/Georghiu . Trovatore remains a harder opera to cast but I saw a tremendous one at Covent Garden pre lockdown. I more or less stopped going to ENO for Verdi / Puccini though I do remember a good Otello with Stuart Skelton - the main reason was I wasn’t convinced they could get the singers - mind you neither could Covent Garden all the time. I get the impression from the reviews that the current ENO Boheme is in some respects better than Covent Garden’s .

A fair summary, though it does prompt the question once again: why doesn't the Royal Opera spend more time and (taxpayers) money in fostering native talent, as they so successfully did in the 1950s and 60s, instead of (adapting your phrase) "getting the singers" from somewhere else, and not necessarily getting the good ones, either.

I think of Chabrier's L'Etoile, which was the wrong show in the wrong venue with the wrong production team - and the wrong singers. "Getting in" a batch of mediocre French singers to do the thing in French (a bad mistake in operetta, whatever our views on "original language"!) looked all the dafter, when the best performances came from Jette Parker young artists, in the smaller roles. The same moral could be drawn when one of the youngsters stepped in to replace some nondescript outside diva as Elsa in Lohengrin, and became an overnight star.

Really, although ENO's management has been unusually bad, ROH is not far behind in blinkered, complacent lack of imagination. And to be frank I would personally include Pappano in that category too: I have better hopes for his successor.

[Bert Coules]

I'm late coming to this discussion, but as I've posted several times in other threads that I'm firmly in favour of opera in English perhaps I've little to add here. Though it might be worth repeating my few basic points: the currently-fashionable approach to teaching singing appears to favour beauty of line over textual clarity; sur- (or super-) titles make audiences who are already more accustomed to recorded rather than live music lazy in their listening; the acoustics of the Coliseum are wayward at best and appalling at worst; and many (even newly-commissioned) translations are less than ideal.

When the ENO first started using titles they used to have one or two performances in each run where they were switched off: does that still happen?

I had hoped that the new Rhinegold might give me a chance to find out for myself, but then I checked the prices: stalls are £216 and the cheapest seats - which seem to be the back two rows of the balcony and nowhere else - are £42. Thank you, the Arts Council.

[duncan]

I had hoped that the new Rhinegold might give me a chance to find out for myself, but then I checked the prices: stalls are £216 and the cheapest seats - which seem to be the back two rows of the balcony and nowhere else - are £42. Thank you, the Arts Council.

Got a pair of £10 tickets (+ £3.25 ‘booking fee’ each) for the side of the balcony row E this afternoon. Very enjoyable, I’ve seen 12 Rheingolds, this was my first Rhinegold and it was one of the best. Jones seems to have his mojo back after the dispiriting Valkyrie. Deathridge’s very modern sounding translation suits the production and most of the cast can be understood without recourse to the surtitles.