Opera in English

[Master Jacques]

Interesting comments by everyone, I suppose it just shows the need for the ENO in London as an alternative to Covent Garden.

It does. Without ENO, the cause of opera in English - hard won over a hundred years by a host of great champions - is temporarily dead.

[Master Jacques]

The Remedios habit reminds me of Iain Wallace's recollection of an un-named bass producing, 'Sir Valter von Stolzink zink the Zonk, Masters, it will not take lonk'.

Which is why we need English singers for Wagner in English.

Vaughan Williams made a similar point, about the horrible way singers mangled English when singing, to make it sound like bad Italian. He remembered, in one of his essays, a famous British tenor coming onto the stage and declaiming "Waaahhhr ees mah braahdd?" in the most ludicrous manner possible. The VS of Sir John in Love makes a joke of this, instructing Falstaff to sing "raw-hawses" for "roses" in his romantic ballad, amongst other things. On the whole, it's a better idea to sing English words in English!

[Stanfordian]

Interesting comments by everyone, I suppose it just shows the need for the ENO in London as an alternative to Covent Garden.

I have to say that the thought of attending operas given in English and not the intended language is a real turn off.

[Master Jacques]

I have to say that the thought of attending operas given in English and not the intended language is a real turn off.

That's your choice of course, but I must say you're choosing to miss out on a very special option, which previous generations (and composers such as RVW) have fought to offer you. Personally, I'm with Wagner, Puccini and Janacek on this question, as you will have gathered! They "intended" English to be the language for their operas, when performed in England.

[gurnemanz]

Our daughter, a ballet fanatic, organised a visit to ROH to see Nutcracker a week ago as a Christmas treat, having found out I had never seen it. A splendid evening and the only slight relevance to this thread was my slightly pedantic annoyance at someone without a grasp of Italian gender shouting loudly "Bravo!” at an obviously female ballerina.

[Master Jacques]

Our daughter, a ballet fanatic, organised a visit to ROH to see Nutcracker a week ago as a Christmas treat, having found out I had never seen it. A splendid evening and the only slight relevance to this thread was my slightly pedantic annoyance at someone without a grasp of Italian gender shouting loudly "Bravo!” at an obviously female ballerina.

I hope you tapped them on the shoulder, with an "excuse me, my good [whatever]...." (!!)

At least you didn't have to worry about whether Nutcracker (or as the "original language at all costs" tribe would prefer, Shchelkunchik) was being done in Russian or English. Nor would surtitles have raised their grizzly heads. That's my problem with ballet, though - I keep expecting the performers to open their mouths and start singing. It's most disconcerting.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I think it’s Verfremdung for her but not for the audience and as we’re paying don’t we get to choose? I wouldn’t want to go back to titleless performances- not least because even with opera in English it is often difficult to decipher partly because orchestras play too loudly and partly because singers aren’t as well trained as they used to be both in terms of projection and diction.

I agree on every point (that is, with the exception of whatever Verfremdung means......).

[Bryn]

I have to say that the thought of attending operas given in English and not the intended language is a real turn off.

While I must admit to generally sharing your feelings on this, how about a work such as Martimu's Jullietta/Julliette? I got to know this dreamily fantastic work via the ENO production with Charles Mackerras in control in the pit. I found the Brian Large translation (as in rendering into English with an emphasis on rhythm - a sort of reverse-engineering of Janacek's approach to speech rhythms and music) very well integrated with the music. Perhaps, strangely, I know and prefer the Brian Large version, and the Frech of Juliette, somewhat, to Martinu's Czech version. Thus, for me, it is very much a case of 'horses for courses'.

[Serial_Apologist]

Would not the problem of surtitles inducing audience hilarity ahead of the punch line's on stage expression be overcome by not putting up the surtitled passage in question before its utterance? Or am I being naive?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I have to say that the thought of attending operas given in English and not the intended language is a real turn off.

Not all composers take such a monochrome view. Elgar’s major oratorios were published with both English and German texts, which seems to me to be sensible.
A less logical approach was adopted for the 1971 Welsh International Eisteddfod. They sang Verdi in Italian and Latin, Mendelssohn in German, Fauré in French and Elgar in Welsh.

[Mandryka]

I don't like opera in English at all. Even operas composed in English, I'd prefer to hear sung in other languages.

I don't think English is an operatic language, and that's a personal opinion.

Surtitles mean we don't need to hear an opera translated from its native language ever again.

Do you feel the same about songs? I mean, would you prefer it if Noel Coward songs were sung in German?

[Serial_Apologist]

Do you feel the same about songs? I mean, would you prefer it if Noel Coward songs were sung in German?

Isn't opera rather a special case though? We can easily get lost in the plethora of genres by going down that road...

Nobody's addressed my point about coordinating surtitled translations with onstage action.

[Cockney Sparrow]

Not all composers take such a monochrome view. Elgar’s major oratorios were published with both English and German texts, which seems to me to be sensible.
A less logical approach was adopted for the 1971 Welsh International Eisteddfod. They sang Verdi in Italian and Latin, Mendelssohn in German, Fauré in French and Elgar in Welsh.

My conclusion, as pure speculation, is that "we'll sing, but any language except English". Fair enough I suppose, I wouldn't want to sing anything in Welsh.....

[Master Jacques]

Isn't opera rather a special case though? We can easily get lost in the plethora of genres by going down that road...

Nobody's addressed my point about coordinating surtitled translations with onstage action.

Rather as with conducting, the surtitles have to co-ordinated (often skilfully operated by the company librarians) rather in the way of a conductor's beat: i.e. they have to appear slightly before the lines are sung, otherwise people are playing mental catch-up all the time, and not listening to the music at all. That's the theory, and the reason why they spoil all the witty jokes.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I agree on every point (that is, with the exception of whatever Verfremdung means......).

It’s a pretentious word for theatrical alienation introduced by Brecht. It means stepping outside the circle of pretence and drawing its theatricality explicitly to our attention - or when a character steps out of the play: as in Buttons asking “ Hello kids have a good Christmas did you ? “
Say V-effect and amaze your friends.