Opera in English

[RichardB]

English works fine as a sung language

Of course it does - and it also suggests an approach to word-setting which is very different from those suitable to French, Italian or German (to name only these). Translating an opera libretto into another language is not the same as for example translating Shakespeare into Italian, because the translator needs to try and put similar vowel sounds in the same places, which isn't always possible, especially in translating into English, whose vowels are in general less clearly defined than those of German or Italian, not to mention similar stress/phrasing patterns, which is difficult to do especially in German where the word order is often very different, and all this while giving an adequate sense of the actual content and subtlety (if any!) of the original libretto and without sounding silly. I haven't heard a translated libretto that doesn't fall down on at least one of these criteria.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It depends on context.
I rarely buy recording of operas translated into English, but I do prefer to see operas in English, rather than being distracted by surtitles, or having to guess what it happening. Similarly, I wouldn’t expect to see a play by Molière, Goethe or Ibsen on home soil, spoken in their original languages.

We’ve had threads on this before, but the same arguments will persist.

[Master Jacques]

Of course it does - and it also suggests an approach to word-setting which is very different from those suitable to French, Italian or German (to name only these). Translating an opera libretto into another language is not the same as for example translating Shakespeare into Italian, because the translator needs to try and put similar vowel sounds in the same places, which isn't always possible, especially in translating into English, whose vowels are in general less clearly defined than those of German or Italian, not to mention similar stress/phrasing patterns, which is difficult to do especially in German where the word order is often very different, and all this while giving an adequate sense of the actual content and subtlety (if any!) of the original libretto and without sounding silly. I haven't heard a translated libretto that doesn't fall down on at least one of these criteria.

I strongly question your point that translation is somehow OK for Shakespeare, but not in reverse for Verdi. Shakespeare is just as much about rhythms and sounds as any operatic composer - plot and character in Macbeth are always subservient to the word (the poetry), just as they subservient to music in Rigoletto. You can reduce "Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow" to a phrase as far as meaning goes, but that would miss the point.

Rather, I would say that translation is absolutely necessary for both. Your point that English vowels are somehow "less clearly defined" is interesting, but I'd need to see some evidence for it: I'd agree that English has a wider and more subtle range of vowel sounds than Italian (though not French or German) but question whether this makes these three languages any less suitable for singing Italian libretti - which is where most criticism of translation seems to gravitate. The best Rigoletto I've ever heard on CD is in German, under Fricsay.

In fact, more derision about Italian opera translation centres on the repetition of lines ("I'm dying" ... "He's dying" .... "I'm dying" .... "He's dead") than on the sound of them, though why that's OK in Italian but not in English baffles me. It's a convention, and we're not talking TV realism here any more than in The Ring! A classic translator (such as Dent in Mozart) produces texts every bit as right and memorable as the originals.

Too much can be made of differences in sound, I think: if you're watching The Makropoulos Case, for example, I doubt that one person in a thousand would be even faintly aware of such niceties, and clear transmission of the meaning of what (say) Kolenaty is telling us about in Act 1 is infinitely more important than whether he's mirroring Czech vowel sounds. Stress patterns are more difficult, I agree ... those feminine endings in Italian, primarily. But in Wagner or Janacek it's easy: change the stress of the phrase to something more natural in English.

I have in my possession some opera scores marked up with David Pountney's translations for performance at ENO and elsewhere. Doubtless purists would be appalled at what he gets up to: but they wouldn't notice in the theatre, and my goodness, they work! That is all that's important, when the "original text" remains always there, for reference - and to listen to, on recordings.

[Master Jacques]

English works fine as a sung language, including opera, eg Britten, Purcell. In song it dominates the international scene in rock, pop, musicals and jazz vocal but we also have a wealth of English-language art songs and folk songs.

I don't like opera translated into English, since I want to hear the text as set by the composer. Surtitles are a great benefit if one does not know the opera in question so well or understand its original language and I am not worried about some occasional out-of-synch laughter.

I agree with half of this, of course! Just to outline why I think that out-of-sync laughter is harmful ... if theatre isn't about a communal experience "in the moment", then it's about nothing we can't get at home.

I promise you that the sense of detachment produced by laughter from the auditorium, preceding the delivery of the line itself on the stage, can be profoundly dispiriting for the singers. There was a good tweet from Rachel Nicholls recently, in which she said that the Verfremdungseffekt of surtitles makes her wonder why she's bothering to deliver the line at all, when the audience has already read it. Though diplomatic about surtitles on the whole, singers do not like 'em. And with reason.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I agree with half of this, of course! Just to outline why I think that out-of-sync laughter is harmful ... if theatre isn't about a communal experience "in the moment", then it's about nothing we can't get at home.

I promise you that the sense of detachment produced by laughter from the auditorium, preceding the delivery of the line itself on the stage, can be profoundly dispiriting for the singers. There was a good tweet from Rachel Nicholls recently, in which she said that the Verfremdungseffekt of surtitles makes her wonder why she's bothering to deliver the line at all, when the audience has already read it. Though diplomatic about surtitles on the whole, singers do not like 'em. And with reason.

I think it’s Verfremdung for her but not for the audience and as we’re paying don’t we get to choose? I wouldn’t want to go back to titleless performances- not least because even with opera in English it is often difficult to decipher partly because orchestras play too loudly and partly because singers aren’t as well trained as they used to be both in terms of projection and diction.

[Sir Velo]

I promise you that the sense of detachment produced by laughter from the auditorium, preceding the delivery of the line itself on the stage, can be profoundly dispiriting for the singers. There was a good tweet from Rachel Nicholls recently, in which she said that the Verfremdungseffekt of surtitles makes her wonder why she's bothering to deliver the line at all, when the audience has already read it. Though diplomatic about surtitles on the whole, singers do not like 'em. And with reason.

I take your point, of course, but having said that, without the surtitles, would they even get a laugh at all? That surely would be equally dispiriting. Again, it makes the point for performing opera live in the vernacular, with the originals for home listening.

[Master Jacques]

I think it’s Verfremdung for her but not for the audience and as we’re paying don’t we get to choose? I wouldn’t want to go back to titleless performances- not least because even with opera in English it is often difficult to decipher partly because orchestras play too loudly and partly because singers aren’t as well trained as they used to be both in terms of projection and diction.

100% correct observations. My feeling is, that if the surtitles weren't there, the orchestra would have to play properly and the singers would have to be better taught. Significantly, you won't find surtitles at Bayreuth. Sir Velo's conclusion - more opera here in English - is inescapable!

When the singers have become detached from the audiences, who seem to be enjoying a different experience divorced from the stage, doesn't that give the Arts Council grounds for deciding that live opera in big theatres is the waste of space they seem to believe?

[gradus]

100% correct observations. My feeling is, that if the surtitles weren't there, the orchestra would have to play properly and the singers would have to be better taught. Significantly, you won't find surtitles at Bayreuth. Sir Velo's conclusion - more opera here in English - is inescapable!

When the singers have become detached from the audiences, who seem to be enjoying a different experience divorced from the stage, doesn't that give the Arts Council grounds for deciding that live opera in big theatres is the waste of space they seem to believe?

I don't particularly like non-English opera sung in English and I think surtitles are an excellent idea. I don't go to the opera for the jokes and if a line is risible in translation then fix it or omit it as the repetitions in text often are.
I like the idea of surtitles at Bayreuth, the stuffed-shirt attitude of some Wagnerians could do with a a humour transplant, 'Das ist kein Mann' would be an ideal starting point.

[smittims]

Coincidentally I've just heard Olga Haley in a very old recording of part of 'Carmen' in English. Lovely voice but silly words... Come back Merimee, all is forgiven.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I don't particularly like non-English opera sung in English and I think surtitles are an excellent idea. I don't go to the opera for the jokes and if a line is risible in translation then fix it or omit it as the repetitions in text often are.
I like the idea of surtitles at Bayreuth, the stuffed-shirt attitude of some Wagnerians could do with a a humour transplant, 'Das ist kein Mann' would be an ideal starting point.

I think that line is supposed to get a laugh . It is also one of the few lines in the Ring that any English audience can translate with virtually no German.
On the Ring Front the otherwise peerless Alberto Remedios had a habit of singing” Notung, Notung, Sword of my Knee “ rather than sounding the D to make it “ Sword of My Need” as in the Porter translation. Given how difficult this passage is he can be entirely forgiven.

[gurnemanz]

100% correct observations. My feeling is, that if the surtitles weren't there, the orchestra would have to play properly and the singers would have to be better taught. Significantly, you won't find surtitles at Bayreuth. Sir Velo's conclusion - more opera here in English - is inescapable!

When the singers have become detached from the audiences, who seem to be enjoying a different experience divorced from the stage, doesn't that give the Arts Council grounds for deciding that live opera in big theatres is the waste of space they seem to believe?

One problem, for me at least, is that I find it hard not to look at surtitles (and subtitles on TV) even if I don't need them. Maybe that stems in part from being a linguist, both teaching and translating, and professional curiosity forces me to take an interest in how they have rendered something. But this is not the whole story: The eye seems to be irresistibly drawn to them, as i have experienced watching plays at the National Theatre which have been captioned for the deaf. I once watched the film, Casablanca, with Rumanian subtitles and found myself glancing at them even though I do not know that language. An obvious drawback is that all the time you are reading them you are not watching the stage or screen.

We have been once to Bayreuth and I certainly think surtitles would detract from the overall experience - as would taking a cushion or not wearing a DJ. Possibly, somebody new to Tannhäuser, which I wasn't, would have welcomed them. I do want to know what is going on. The first time I heard Parsifal live, Boulez Proms 1972 standing in the Arena, I took my mini Reclam copy of the libretto with me, complete with pencil notes in the margin for leitmotivs and general observations.

[Master Jacques]

One problem, for me at least, is that I find it hard not to look at surtitles (and subtitles on TV) even if I don't need them.

Snap! Curiosity dictates that eternal straying look upwards from the stage, too often to find fault with the casual nonsense one finds on the surtitle screen. It is entirely distracting. At this year's Proms, Il tabarro was rendered occasionally senseless by Auntie's lazily unedited Google translation. Bayreuth have the right idea - we're there to watch plays with music, not surtitles - and any Tannhäuser newbie surely ought to do their homework.

(Once upon a time, performing in a play with live deaf signing, I got so intrigued watching the impressive performance art going on to my right, that I all but dried. It was much more interesting than anything we were doing!)

[gradus]

I think that line is supposed to get a laugh . It is also one of the few lines in the Ring that any English audience can translate with virtually no German.
On the Ring Front the otherwise peerless Alberto Remedios had a habit of singing” Notung, Notung, Sword of my Knee “ rather than sounding the D to make it “ Sword of My Need” as in the Porter translation. Given how difficult this passage is he can be entirely forgiven.

The Remedios habit reminds me of Iain Wallace's recollection of an un-named bass producing, 'Sir Valter von Stolzink zink the Zonk, Masters, it will not take lonk'.

[Master Jacques]

Coincidentally I've just heard Olga Haley in a very old recording of part of 'Carmen' in English. Lovely voice but silly words... Come back Merimee, all is forgiven.

Translations must only serve their time, and then be dropped, as that old Carmen job was many decades ago. Operas need to be retranslated for every new generation.

Of course Merimée was not responsible for the libretto, which hardly follows his novella except in broad outline. Bizet's excellent writers were Meilhac and Halévy, and they deserve a good 50% of the credit for the opera's success. They dropped Carmen's husband and invented José's fiancée Micaëla, amongst a host of major and minor changes.

[JasonPalmer]

Interesting comments by everyone, I suppose it just shows the need for the ENO in London as an alternative to Covent Garden.