Great music - terrible libretto - what is the best opera with the worst libretto.

[ChandlersFord]

Same for most of Rosenkavalier.

The libretto there is quite superb; many (Georg Solti was one) feel the the libretto is superior to the music.

[ChandlersFord]

I knew someone would say that! The libretto contains much beautiful and insightful poetry to be sure, but all the business with Baron Ochs I find tedious and grubby, seeming the more so when placed against such sublime moments from both Strauss and Hofmannsthal as the Marschallin's meditation on time and aging, or Octavian's first meeting with Sophie, or the trio in the final act. The nostalgic view of idealised 18th century social hierarchy is problematic too, given when and where it was written. Well, hardly any extensive and complex artwork is without its flaws and contradictions; with Strauss you always have to swallow a substantial dose of superficiality with your psychological depth, and Hoffmansthal knew exactly what he was doing in catering for the composer's needs and preferences. It's because his libretto achieves so much in some moments that it's hard to forgive it for falling just as often into banality and distastefulness.

Strauss and von Hof don't view the class structure with nostalgia or sentimentality - Ochs is a bullying, oafish boor, Octavian a rich kid Junker who will no doubt end up fat and die of syphilis, 'von' Faninal is a creeping bourgeois toady and Sophie is a toy doll. The only character with any real insight into the set-up is the Marshallin, who knows that her time is almost done and acts accordingly.

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Wagner yet. Obviously, no-one else could have written those libretti, but a lot of his writing is in the vein of the most awful, lilac-scented nineteenth century poetry. There are exceptions, though, as with Sachs' monologues in Meistersinger. On the rare occasion when he set someone else's words (the Wesendonk Lieder, I don't count his version of Two Grenadiers), the texts were mediocre.

[RichardB]

Strauss and von Hof don't view the class structure with nostalgia or sentimentality - Ochs is a bullying, oafish boor, Octavian a rich kid Junker who will no doubt end up fat and die of syphilis, 'von' Faninal is a creeping bourgeois toady and Sophie is a toy doll. The only character with any real insight into the set-up is the Marshallin, who knows that her time is almost done and acts accordingly.

Yes indeed, all of that is true, but as Master Jacques says Ochs is portrayed in such a way as to supposedly make him "adorable", and I don't see or hear any hint of questioning the class structure in which all the characters are embedded - after all, both Hofmannsthal and Strauss were highly conservative in their thinking.

Wagner: certainly not a great poet by any stretch, but (like Tippett) the only possible librettist for his musical concepts.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I’m glad that Smittims and Master Jacques are sticking up for Cosi Fan Tutte. A profound opera that contains human truths about the fickleness of the heart and the dangers of falling in love with love. There is some confusion in this thread between plot and libretto. Da Ponte, Piave and Von Hofmannsthal were master wordsmiths - genius level really - but all their plots contain elements of implausibility - but that’s the nature of drama. In Cosi it’s pushed to the very limit.
My take on Der Rosenkavalier is that it’s a very subtle undermining of the late 18th / early 19th century class structure. Ochs ( and his odious servant abusing son Leopold ) is a borderline child abuser, an exploiter of class privilege , very far from being lovable , and gets his comeuppance. It’s also way ahead of its time in its approach to gender fluidity and cosplay . I leave you to decide whether I’m joking..
It also has one of the all time great libretti …

[Master Jacques]

Yes indeed, all of that is true, but as Master Jacques says Ochs is portrayed in such a way as to supposedly make him "adorable", and I don't see or hear any hint of questioning the class structure in which all the characters are embedded - after all, both Hofmannsthal and Strauss were highly conservative in their thinking.

Wagner: certainly not a great poet by any stretch, but (like Tippett) the only possible librettist for his musical concepts.

I think this is an important idea: "the only possible librettist for his musical concepts". That is something we forget at our peril, as I've hinted in the case of Euryanthe too. The same's just as true of Il trovatore.

I wouldn't dissent much from Chandlerford's insights either. Ochs strides through this rococo fantasy-world as a reminder of what they'll all (we all!) come to in the end. He also represents an earthy, unsentimental rural reality, where death (whether from huntin', shootin' and fishin', or human disease) is the norm, charging like a bull into an essentially false, urban china shop.

As a side-thought, I at least have never bought into sanctification of the Marschallin. Somebody in their thirties looking into a mirror and indulging themselves with thoughts of incipient old age is as much a shallow, sentimental fantasist as any of the others. She's Thais without the need to earn a living.

I once read an academic article (can't remember whose) which analysed her valorisation as a gay icon - the older man, mentoring and giving up the younger - which makes sense. And don't forget, the ending is ambiguous: she has probably not given up on Octavian, quite yet, and the plotting is set to continue. It's a strategic retreat, and she can bide her (still limitless) time.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think this is an important idea: "the only possible librettist for his musical concepts". That is something we forget at our peril, as I've hinted in the case of Euryanthe too. The same's just as true of Il trovatore.

I wouldn't dissent much from Chandlerford's insights either. Ochs strides through this rococo fantasy-world as a reminder of what they'll all (we all!) come to in the end. He also represents an earthy, unsentimental rural reality, where death (whether from huntin', shootin' and fishin', or human disease) is the norm, charging like a bull into an essentially false, urban china shop.

As a side-thought, I at least have never bought into sanctification of the Marschallin. Somebody in their thirties looking into a mirror and indulging themselves with thoughts of incipient old age is as much a shallow, sentimental fantasist as any of the others. She's Thais without the need to earn a living.

I once read an academic article (can't remember whose) which analysed her valorisation as a gay icon - the older man, mentoring and giving up the younger - which makes sense. And don't forget, the ending is ambiguous: she has probably not given up on Octavian, quite yet, and the plotting is set to continue. It's a strategic retreat, and she can bide her (still limitless) time.

Isn’t just about every female main character in opera a “gay” icon ?

[Mandryka]

Parsifal is literally nonsense. It makes no sense.

Arabella has a bed trick, so clearly a rubbish libretto.


Then there’s the licht operas

[Master Jacques]

Yes indeed, all of that is true, but as Master Jacques says Ochs is portrayed in such a way as to supposedly make him "adorable", and I don't see or hear any hint of questioning the class structure in which all the characters are embedded - after all, both Hofmannsthal and Strauss were highly conservative in their thinking.

But this isn't The Marriage of Figaro, which is in the business of questioning the class structure. The politics of Der Rosenkavalier aren't particularly conservative, though, as they do suggest that the vitality of the barbarians will always win out in the end, over questionably "civilised" values. Only here, the lower classes and servants - Marianne, Valzacchi, Amina, the pub landlord and the poor supplicants at the levée - are portrayed with as much cynicism as everyone else. It's a fascinating libretto, for sure.

[Master Jacques]

Isn’t just about every female main character in opera a “gay” icon ?

There are quite a few, it's true! But the Marschallin feeds into that old trope (mercifully little heard nowadays!) that "nobody loves a fairy when she's forty".

[Master Jacques]

Parsifal is literally nonsense. It makes no sense.

Arabella has a bed trick, so clearly a rubbish libretto.

In the theatre, Parsifal makes perfect sense, thanks to its supreme musical cogency. We may not like what it has to tell us, but that's another debate.

I don't much care for Arabella myself, because the score's so extremely patchy. But if we're throwing out the bed trick, that old staple of Western drama, we're throwing out at least two Shakespeare masterpieces as well. But I think Mandryka of all people has his tongue firmly in his cheek!

[Ein Heldenleben]

But this isn't The Marriage of Figaro, which is in the business of questioning the class structure. The politics of Der Rosenkavalier aren't particularly conservative, though, as they do suggest that the vitality of the barbarians will always win out in the end, over questionably "civilised" values. Only here, the lower classes and servants - Marianne, Valzacchi, Amina, the pub landlord and the poor supplicants at the levée - are portrayed with as much cynicism as everyone else. It's a fascinating libretto, for sure.

On a Marxist note Fanninal is selling his daughter in pretty much the same way as he would his merchandise because he wants to move from the mercantile bourgeoisie to the aristocracy . The petit bourgeois Marianna enacts her revenge because she doesn’t get paid. A revenge which involves using small children pretending to be Ochs children begging for money.This scene echoes the earlier song of the three military orphans whose fathers were killed , no doubt, as a result of the military decisions of the Marschallin’s husband. It’s a very subversive opera really….you can sense the whole structure rotting in front of you.

[Master Jacques]

Ochs ( and his odious servant abusing son Leopold ) is a borderline child abuser, an exploiter of class privilege , very far from being lovable , and gets his comeuppance. It’s also way ahead of its time in its approach to gender fluidity and cosplay . I leave you to decide whether I’m joking... It also has one of the all time great libretti …

Ha! Och's moment of truth, where he looks round, sees how he's been had, and makes a hasty exit stage left ("Leopold, wir gehn!") is turned by Strauss into quite a triumphant business. It's one of the great exits in opera. He realises he can't beat this lot, when it comes to intrigue and charlatanism, and retreats to his own element. And unlike the sugary Marschallin, he ain't coming back!

[Master Jacques]

It’s a very subversive opera really….you can sense the whole structure rotting in front of you.

In the face of your roster of evidence, I must agree with you. But unlike Mozart and Beaumarchais in Figaro, who hold on to the idea that there might be a better social order around the corner, Hoffmanstahl is a cynic about the whole business of society.

[Bella Kemp]

I suppose The Ice Break deserves a mention. Does anyone remember the eternal line, 'This chick wants ballin'?' and 'Play it cool.' But, on the other hand, perhaps we mock it because we simply don't expect this kind of language in opera.

[mikealdren]

Anyone worked out the Midsummer Marriage?