Great music - terrible libretto - what is the best opera with the worst libretto.

[Barbirollians]

In the spirit of the famous Not the Nine O'Clock News sketch - " nice video shame about the song "

What opera in your view has the biggest disconnect between wonderful music and a terrible story/libretto . Having just listened to Weber Euryanthe in the terrific Norman/Gedda / Marek Janowski this must be a lead contender.

[Rolmill]

In the spirit of the famous Not the Nine O'Clock News sketch - " nice video shame about the song "

What opera in your view has the biggest disconnect between wonderful music and a terrible story/libretto . Having just listened to Weber Euryanthe in the terrific Norman/Gedda / Marek Janowski this must be a lead contender.

My nomination: Verdi's La Forza del Destino - lots of great music, but what a feeble plot!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Mozart’s Cosi fan Tutte

[Barbirollians]

Mozart’s Cosi fan Tutte

The libretto is fine the premise is deeply naff I agree .

[RichardB]

The libretto is fine the premise is deeply naff I agree .

Same for most of Rosenkavalier.

[Master Jacques]

Oh dear. I dislike these kinds of thread very much, and shouldn't really be tempted to give it oxygen!

But I must say that all four of the libretti chosen for disparagement deserve much more respect. Rosenkavalier is acknowledged to be one of the best ever written - Hoffmanstahl's text has been performed in Germany as a 'straight' play, which tells us much. Large parts of the opera are carried by the text, not the 'workmanlike' score which generally prevails.

Cosi fan tutte is not intended as TV realism, but da Ponte's cynical brilliance does enshrine deep truths about the human condition, especially young humans in amorous mode. It is superbly worked out, then thrown up as a toy at the end, in a profoundly disturbing way which leaves a nasty taste. Noel Coward often does the same thing, and I don't hear criticism of his stuff. Nasty doesn't mean bad.

La forza del destino uses one of the great, European romantic dramas (by Rivas) which offers a Byronic panorama of impressive sweep and power. Buoyed up as it is by two great army scenes from Schiller, Piave's libretto simply works superbly in the theatre, and once again standards of TV realism do not apply. It's about 'fate', not 'destiny' of course, which is our misconception.

As for Euryanthe ... well, I confess that I might have gone along with that, before I actually bothered to study it in depth for some liner notes I was writing. I came away from that process feeling that if the libretto had not been written by a woman, it would have been hailed as one of the most interesting and rich psychological studies of its time - such scenes as the Judgement, where the innocent woman, surrounded by male judges, is cowed into silence and unable to speak in her own defence, and the sadistic scene in the desert, are memorably chilling. And after all, it proved exactly the right vehicle to inspire Weber's very best operatic music. That's all the defence Mina von Chézy needs.

Anyway, enough said. And please, I hope nobody mentions Il trovatore, which is one of the greatest operatic libretti ever provided for anyone, subjected to infinite silliness down the centuries, by people who should know better! There's a reason all these operas survive, and in all cases the libretto can take plenty of the credit.

[RichardB]

Rosenkavalier is acknowledged to be one of the best ever written - Hoffmanstahl's text has been performed in Germany as a 'straight' play, which tells us much. Large parts of the opera are carried by the text, not the 'workmanlike' score which generally prevails.

I knew someone would say that! The libretto contains much beautiful and insightful poetry to be sure, but all the business with Baron Ochs I find tedious and grubby, seeming the more so when placed against such sublime moments from both Strauss and Hofmannsthal as the Marschallin's meditation on time and aging, or Octavian's first meeting with Sophie, or the trio in the final act. The nostalgic view of idealised 18th century social hierarchy is problematic too, given when and where it was written. Well, hardly any extensive and complex artwork is without its flaws and contradictions; with Strauss you always have to swallow a substantial dose of superficiality with your psychological depth, and Hoffmansthal knew exactly what he was doing in catering for the composer's needs and preferences. It's because his libretto achieves so much in some moments that it's hard to forgive it for falling just as often into banality and distastefulness.

[Belgrove]

It’s far easier to name decent ones, which are pretty rare - The Rake’s Progress takes some beating. An interesting variation is a libretto that’s better than the music. I’d volunteer Martin Crimp’s for Lessons in Love and Violence.

[Master Jacques]

I knew someone would say that! The libretto contains much beautiful and insightful poetry to be sure, but all the business with Baron Ochs I find tedious and grubby, seeming the more so when placed against such sublime moments from both Strauss and Hofmannsthal as the Marschallin's meditation on time and aging, or Octavian's first meeting with Sophie, or the trio in the final act. The nostalgic view of idealised 18th century social hierarchy is problematic too, given when and where it was written. Well, hardly any extensive and complex artwork is without its flaws and contradictions; with Strauss you always have to swallow a substantial dose of superficiality with your psychological depth, and Hoffmansthal knew exactly what he was doing in catering for the composer's needs and preferences. It's because his libretto achieves so much in some moments that it's hard to forgive it for falling just as often into banality and distastefulness.

While I agree about the poetry, "all the business with Baron Ochs" is what brings the whole thing to life in the theatre. Audiences adore him, even in a second-class performance. He is one of the great operatic characters, which is why just about every bass worth the name wants to play him. Without his earthy philistinism (and low cunning) those "sublime" moments everyone swoons over wouldn't be worth much, quite honestly. He provides the "real toad in the formal garden", in Marianne Moore's phrase.

If certain 18th c. social aspects are "problematic", that's the problem for our sniffy age, not Hoffmansthal's. I agree completely (as outlined above) about the libretto's ambiguities - but they are the reason the thing works, rather than a "flaw" in something otherwise sublimely beautiful. That seems to me to be looking at Rosenkavalier through the wrong end of the telescope. It's the Baron Ochs show, frankly.

[Master Jacques]

It’s far easier to name decent ones, which are pretty rare - The Rake’s Progress takes some beating. An interesting variation is a libretto that’s better than the music. I’d volunteer Martin Crimp’s for Lessons in Love and Violence.

I couldn't agree more with you about The Rake's Progress, although as with many Auden libretti there's a danger that its literary quality overshadows the music (especially here in Act 2). But I couldn't agree less about decent libretti being "pretty rare". Nor - entre nous! - am I a fan of Martin Crimp's politically correct poetic pretensions, though that is doubtless my loss. Perhaps if Benjamin's music were better ... but that's perhapsing.

[smittims]

I was sorry to see 'Cosi' mentioned here. I've always thought it among the most subtle of opera libretti.

Naturally, at first acquaintence it seems absurd and unbelievable, but if you accept that opera is 'an exotick and irrational entertainment' * and look further, it opens up. Of course one cannot believe that they aren't really aware of their lovers' identities; it's the various levels of deception , including self-deception, which make it so fascinating, and a gift and endless challenge for singers.

I'm not surprised Beethoven thought it immoral ; if one looks at his own emotional life it's no wonder he s a little out of his depth with Mozart and da Ponte.

----------------------------------

*Johnson's Dictionary.

[RichardB]

The Rake’s Progress takes some beating.

That's for sure. And on the subject of English language opera texts there's also Punch and Judy and King Priam.

Personally I don't "adore" Baron Ochs, and I don't see anything adorable about him or indeed about making such a character "adorable", and if that makes me "sniffy" so be it! If his character is what makes the drama "work" that indicates to me that maybe the libretto is more fundamentally flawed than I thought it was.

[french frank]

Hoffmanstahl's text has been performed in Germany as a 'straight' play, which tells us much. Large parts of the opera are carried by the text, not the 'workmanlike' score which generally prevails.

I don't often plunge into the musical debates because all the disputants suddenly unite But I was struck by the coincidence: at #2 I was tempted to suggest Die Frau ohne Schatten. I suppose the text has a symbolic profundity that totally escaped me …

[Master Jacques]

I don't often plunge into the musical debates because all the disputants suddenly unite But I was struck by the coincidence: at #2 I was tempted to suggest Die Frau ohne Schatten. I suppose the text has a symbolic profundity that totally escaped me …

Now you're talking! My absolute favourite Hoffmansthal/Strauss work. I think our mistake (as with Magic Flute or Midsummer Marriage) is to spend time puzzling over things in the study which make perfect sense in the theatre. Think of Die Frau... as a magic realist, turn-based, multi-player RPG video game and all those difficulties disappear. Such moments as the fishes/children in the frying pan are simply strange and moving, in the moment. The music makes deep sense of that, and the other alleged difficulties. The Empress's "Ich Will Nicht!" is soul-stirring, whether or not we're quite clear what she's rejecting - though actually, that one's pretty obvious. The clue's in the title!

[Master Jacques]

Personally I don't "adore" Baron Ochs, and I don't see anything adorable about him or indeed about making such a character "adorable", and if that makes me "sniffy" so be it! If his character is what makes the drama "work" that indicates to me that maybe the libretto is more fundamentally flawed than I thought it was.

I can't help you with that, alas, but am sure you're in a small minority in finding this "lovable rogue" less of the former and more of the latter. He punctures the prettiness (which of course that theatrical master Hoffmansthal presents ironically) at every moment.